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ATR-72 crash at PKR, Nepal. Many fatalities feared.

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  • Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
    I'm one of those old guys who probably flew into Kai Tak 50 times before they moved to the Island where I also flew into many times. Usually by the second trip into Kai Take you figure out the tricks.
    I think the moral of this thread is: the second time's the charm.

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    • Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
      I'm one of those old guys who probably flew into Kai Tak 50 times before they moved to the Island where I also flew into many times. Usually by the second trip into Kai Take you figure out the tricks. Descent rate established on the ILS then just turn over the center line strobe lights and maintain your descent rate. When there was a right crosswind it just required a earlier turn to final to give you a chance to find the correction needed.

      The best time killer, besides shopping, was to go sit on the checkerboard and watch the arrivals.
      Wow. And I thought that I am gettin a little bit older than the other so called jetphotos "seniors", .. because I am two weeks older than Alex, since the beginning of March 2023.

      But since today, I know who is the chief of all so called jetphotos "seniors", and who indeed is the younger brother of Mr Robert de Niro. That's you!

      November 1942 is worldwide famous, if you ask me. And November also here in my family is a good month, I also have a younger brother.

      50 times before they moved to the Island
      Yes. But a) for these words we need to be 45 (or what would Alex think about that) and then, b) funny enough, it is a movement which if you ask me here on this platform until now is only described by people who not necessarily own simplyfied Chinese or a language like that.

      From Kai Tak to Chek Lap Kok ('the island').

      Btw, how far away from the topic are we, right in this moment. But I don't care, when I can virtually sit next to a man who knows the checkerboard hill with his own eyes.

      ... Sorry. Without words.
      Last edited by LH-B744; 2023-03-11, 06:55.
      The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
      The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
      And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
      This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

      Comment


      • Nepal plane crash caused by pilots mistakenly cutting power, says report (bbc.com)

        "Following the un-intentional feathering of both engine propellers, the flight crew failed to identify the problem and take corrective actions despite the Crew Alerting Panel cautions."

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        • The report also listed a lack of appropriate technical and skill based training, high workload and stress, and non-compliance with standard operating procedures as contributing factors to the accident.
          I would add: flying an unfamiliar and challenging circling visual approach in close proximity to terrain hazards. I think their eyes were busy with the windscreen and landmarks.

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          • Inside-the-cockpit video of the stupid cowboy monkey decision to do the insane option of landing into the wind: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/at9nrJ_...MoO4F2bGlWNkdL
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • 3WE Into the wind? Where did you get this info from?

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              • Pokhara’s new airport was weeks old at the time, and the crew hadn’t received skill-based training for the airport, the report said. It was also the first pilot’s first attempt at landing on that runway, and the third time for the second pilot. The crew were probably distracted, the report said, because the pilots were occupied with providing instructions instead of focused on their duties.​
                There it is, as I suspected. On a visual approach as challenging as this one, both pilots should have been trained on this on non-revenue training flights or high-fidelity SIM. Moreover, lacking that training, they should have taken the straight-in on this flight with a mild tailwind over a first-time go at this approach. It's a tight, time-compressed, non-standard circling approach with terrain hazards. And this is what happens when nobody has their eyes on the controls.

                Perfect Storm: The PF, who mistook the condition levers for the flap lever (which have very different operational and tactile aspects), had 186 hours on type...

                Nail in Coffin: The circle-to-land on RWY 12, which had no published procedure, required a very steep turn to final. I am convinced that the steep turn we see at the onset of stall was intentional and accelerated the stall.

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                • Here is a link to the report:

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                  • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    I am convinced that the steep turn we see at the onset of stall was intentional and accelerated the stall.
                    Indeed. We know you are convinced…about lots of things.

                    Just as I’m convinced that you need to ride a bicycle to experience 50 Shades of Gray.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      Indeed.
                      Look at the tracks, both the accident track and the previous ones. Look where they are when the steep bank occurs. If you intend to line up with RWY12, you MUST bank steeply at that moment. More than enough to trigger a wing stall when flying level at the edge of stall.

                      Originally posted by 9N-ANC FINAL REPORT
                      At 10:57:26, a second sequence of stick shaker warning was activated when the aircraft banked towards the left abruptly.​
                      Note all the words: 'when', not 'before'.

                      ALL the previous tracks overshot the runway centerline and had to make last second corrections to get back on it. Not ideal.

                      There's a reason CAAN prohibited visual approach landings on VNPR runway 12 after the accident. It wasn't just pilot error. It was and remains an unacceptably tight and hazardous approach that can not meet stable approach criteria.

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                      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        Perfect Storm: The PF, who mistook the condition levers for the flap lever (which have very different operational and tactile aspects), had 186 hours on type...
                        The pilot flying, who was in the left seat and was qualifying for a promotion to Captain (I think this was her last flight before being officially appointed captain), had 6,400 flight hours total time, 180 on type, and DID NOT MISTAKE the condition levers for the flap handles. She did call for flaps.

                        The pilot monitoring, flying in the right seat, was a qualified ATR captain and qualified ATR instructor with 22,000 flight hours total time and 3,300 hours on type. And it was him who mistook the condition levers for the flap lever.

                        Both of them failed to check that the flaps had been set after the call and execution, and both of them failed to identify that the engines had stopped producing thrust. (She eventually did, too late).

                        I am convinced that the steep turn we see at the onset of stall was intentional and accelerated the stall.
                        I am convinced that wasn't a commanded bank (let alone intentional) and that it wasn't an accelerated stall.

                        Originally posted by 9N-ANC FINAL REPORT
                        At 10:57:26, a second sequence of stick shaker warning was activated when the aircraft banked towards the left abruptly.​
                        Note all the words: 'when', not 'before'.
                        Cherry-picking.
                        Note that no action or control input or movement of the flight controls is mentioned.
                        Also note the the pilots were pulling up BEFORE the sudden roll and fall. It is clearly seen in the video.

                        ALL the previous tracks overshot the runway centerline and had to make last second corrections to get back on it. Not ideal.
                        Cherry-picking.
                        ​All the tracks (previous and not previous) show that they started the final turn too late. In all of them you can see a period of no to minimum turn between the base turn and the final turn. Make that segment shorter, start the final turn sooner and you would not overshoot the centerline. It is not like the downwind leg was too close to the runway to accommodate the base and final turns.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Cherry-picking.
                          ​All the tracks (previous and not previous) show that they started the final turn too late. In all of them you can see a period of no to minimum turn between the base turn and the final turn. Make that segment shorter, start the final turn sooner and you would not overshoot the centerline. It is not like the downwind leg was too close to the runway to accommodate the base and final turns.
                          Yes, but look where they are when the bank/stall occurs. Well past the opportunity to avoid overshooting the centerline without an abrupt turn, low on energy, low on altitude, engines not producing thrust, and there it is, the runway in sight. What are they going to do—instinctively? Remain in level flight and miss the runway? And then what?

                          I mean they were doomed the moment they broke off perfectly safe RWY 30 for a stab at a tight, unpracticed, precarious circle to RWY 12 for no good reason with passengers in their charge. If I had relatives on the flight, I would be furious and this would be the mainstay of my lawsuit.

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                          • Gabriel Reading all your replies, a simple question comes to my mind. Are you a pilot IRL? If yes, what licences do you hold, what airplanes do you fly and how many hours you have?
                            Thank you in advance.

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                            • Originally posted by bstolle View Post
                              Gabriel Reading all your replies, a simple question comes to my mind. Are you a pilot IRL? If yes, what licences do you hold, what airplanes do you fly and how many hours you have?
                              Thank you in advance.
                              Bstolle, Gabriel holds the esteemed position of Aeroengineer of the Millennium at Sweet Monkey River Airways, and that's good enough for us.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by bstolle View Post
                                Gabriel Reading all your replies, a simple question comes to my mind. Are you a pilot IRL? If yes, what licences do you hold, what airplanes do you fly and how many hours you have?
                                Thank you in advance.
                                Boeing Berntie:

                                A belated welcome to the forum.

                                I don’t know if I can be brief enough.

                                We all kind of like Airplanes, take a dark AND saftey-improvement attitude towards crashes and tell ourselves how we would not have crashed.

                                Conversely, Gabe and I hold (admittedly inactive) PPL SEL certificates and know a few things and don’t know a few things.

                                One of our better talents is being a bit too bold in our pontifications on what airline pilots should do.

                                Please know we admire what you do and apologies in advance that we will be irritating ankle biters
                                at times. ATL Crew and Bobby have been irritated by us from time to time.

                                Gabe also has a degree in aeronautical engineering and is rather anal/nitpicky regarding details. While I tend to focus on the importance of airspeed for stall avoidance, Gabe will almost always mention that it’s AOA that causes the stall.

                                We both kind of frown on pilots that pull up excessively.

                                Gabe is also known for being a bit long winded. I think he may have been a bit too harsh regarding your comments about stalls and that you can’t believe a pilot would do that. Gabe wasn’t really ARGUING as much as saying, yeah but, you can’t always tell for sure AND we ARE OFTEN amazed at how “good pilots” do WRONG things. (Like pulling up relentlessly while the stall warning sounds for tens of thousands of feet.)

                                Two additional warnings:

                                1. I like to stir shit, and on rare occasions may be just a tad sarcastic.

                                2. Evan love’s procedures and automation, has disdain for pilots and fundamentals and lives in a fantasy bubble. His pontification is particularly pointed: “Aviation needs more regulation, oversight, screening, procedures, training, punishment, bannings and the firings of Boeing executives (as noted by Boeing Bobby).”

                                Please share your knowledge and insights with us, for as long as you can tolerate the free, outsider advice.

                                Footnote: I thought Gabriel’s thoughts on this crash were reasonable- please note that he spent a large amount of time explaining to Evan that flying a pattern and landing into the wind in severe VMC weather does not_make one a cowboy improvising pilot nor require super duper type specific training, etc. Somehow Evan was also convinced that some sort of fighter plane bank AS WELL AS A FINAL bank and accelerated stall are involved here…. He’s never ridden a bicycle and I just don’t think he gets it (from his pathogen filtered bubble, that the poor PF simply ran out of airspeed and altitude after her trainer pilot feathered the props.

                                I THINK Gabriel believes (me too) that the pilots should have quickly glanced at power/prop levers and engine instruments and fixed things…easy to say from 0 kts and zero AGL on a keyboard; however.
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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