American Airlines crew subpoenaed after refusing to cooperate with NTSB investigation

[Evan]

The underlined part is the reason why they were almost required but not actually required to preserve the CVR.

The underlined part needs to be gotten rid of. Who writes this stuff...

[TeeVee]

who writes it? the people you want making more regulations, that's who.

i'm guessing the cvr does not have a button that saves a particular part of the recording and continues recording. so if a flight is not cancelled, and it is not legal to fly with the cvr turned off, what does the great, wise evan suggest? wait, i know! redesign the cvr so that a crew can hit "save" and continue to record the remainder of the flight. or maybe, every flight during which an event happens should be cancelled?

[Gabriel]

if a flight is not cancelled, and it is not legal to fly with the cvr turned off, what does the great, wise evan suggest? wait, i know! every flight during which an event happens should be cancelled?

"Every flight where an event happens" maybe not. "Cancelled" maybe not.

But how about specific extremely serious incidents that requires an immediate notification to the NTSB also require preserving the FDR and CVR? Call it "save", "download", "replace CVR unit" (for which a spare was most likely available in a hub like JFK) or cancel flight if all else fails?

This was an event where the American plane "Experienced a runway incursion that requires the operator or the crew of another aircraft or vehicle to take immediate corrective action to avoid a collision", which is included in the short list of specific extremely serious events that requires notifying the NTSB "immediately, and by the most expeditious means available".

Luck saved the day here. Had Delta started the take-off roll 5 seconds earlier, we would still be doing ADN tests to identify human remains. Isn't it worth to lose a couple of hours to secure the CVR, see what happened, and what measures can be taken so the next time it doesn't end up with hundreds of dead bodies on fire scattered on the runway?

[TeeVee]

well now if ya wanna do things that way, then the feds shouldda required this feature in cvr's a long time ago. is the taxpayer going to bear the cost of cancelling or substantially delaying every flight that qualifies? no. the airline will. and as we all know too well, most US airlines dont care much for taking care of pax who;s flights have been cancelled. some wait days for rebooking. biz opportunities lost, weddings and funerals missed, $1000's spent on vacations (little known fact: many hotels will cancel your res if you fail to show on time. they dont care about flight cancellations).

no, you cannot put a price on life and safety. but as we have discussed many times here, there is a reasonable point at which increasing safety margins stops.

cvr data is microscopic by modern measurements. it should be sent in burst transmissions to ground stations every 30 seconds.

[Evan]

what does the great, wise evan suggest? wait, i know! redesign the cvr so that a crew can hit "save" and continue to record the remainder of the flight. or maybe, every flight during which an event happens should be cancelled?

The crew should absolutely have been replaced before continuing (perhaps they were). An event like this is a strong indication that the crew is not fit to fly on this occasion for any number of reasons. Also, the stress of the event will be expected to negatively affect their concentration. They know are in serious trouble and probably a bit shaken by the whole affair. The rule should be that the CVR must be preserved anytime a serious event requiring an inquiry occurs. And the rule should be that a pilot who doesn’t recognise the seriousness of this event should be flipping burgers.

it’s possible that a relief crew reset the CVR.

[Gabriel]

The crew should absolutely have been replaced before continuing (perhaps they were).

They were not.

[Gabriel]

well now if ya wanna do things that way, then the feds shouldda required this feature in cvr's a long time ago. is the taxpayer going to bear the cost of cancelling or substantially delaying every flight that qualifies? no. the airline will. and as we all know too well, most US airlines dont care much for taking care of pax who;s flights have been cancelled. some wait days for rebooking. biz opportunities lost, weddings and funerals missed, $1000's spent on vacations (little known fact: many hotels will cancel your res if you fail to show on time. they dont care about flight cancellations).

no, you cannot put a price on life and safety. but as we have discussed many times here, there is a reasonable point at which increasing safety margins stops.

cvr data is microscopic by modern measurements. it should be sent in burst transmissions to ground stations every 30 seconds.

I don't disagree wit that, but realize that many flights are delayed and cancelled every day, and the kind of very serious incident that require immediate reporting add up to zero in most days. And the ones that do not imply the termination of the flight anyway (cancellation, diversion) are even fewer. These are what you call "every flight that qualifies". If they make any significant difference in the number of delays and cancellations, we have a problem much greater than increasing the number of delays and cancellations.

Not having CVRs downloaded in real time (and prepare for the whining of the pilot unions) is no excuse for not preserving the CVR in cases of very serious incidents today.

[TeeVee]

this discussion is nonsensical. we all know (including the NTSB knuckleheads assigned to investigate) what happened. the crew failed to follow instructions. does it matter that at the base of their failure they were talking about the color of the water in fiji or what they planned on eating upon arrival?

[Evan]

They were not.

If there’s a crime to be found here, that’s it.

[Gabriel]

this discussion is nonsensical. we all know (including the NTSB knuckleheads assigned to investigate) what happened. the crew failed to follow instructions. does it matter that at the base of their failure they were talking about the color of the water in fiji or what they planned on eating upon arrival?

Right counselor. The body is dead therefore homicide 1. Mens rea is not important.

It doesn't matter if the crew got distracted talking about the color of the water in Fiji, intentionally disregarding sterile cockpit requirements that they knew they were required to abide to for safety reasons, or if they were distracted trying to figure out what and how they were supposed to do what they needed to do now with the new procedures that American Airlines just put into place. Same administrative actions. Same corrective actions.

[Evan]

or if they were distracted trying to figure out what and how they were supposed to do what they needed to do now with the new procedures that American Airlines just put into place.

Does American Airlines have a new procedure in place for crossing an active runway without clearance or even (my father taught me this procedure) looking both ways?

[kent olsen]

Yes I did forget to put in the part about 'declaring an emergency first'

You guys are really getting into this CVR. There was a time, many years ago I think, where the airlines wanted to be able to put the CVR and FDR at their discretion to check on the crews performance. I think the Unions shot that down. Remember when you first flew a single pilot airplane and had no one to talk to? We are all human and granted there are places where the 'sterile cockpit rules apply'. Like crossing any runway. Also the Captain has to set the atmosphere in the cockpit.

Oh wait a minute, did I say cockpit? You can't say that anymore, now it's the Flightdeck.

[Gabriel]

Does American Airlines have a new procedure in place for crossing an active runway without clearance or even (my father taught me this procedure) looking both ways?

I meant procedures for other things like who has to punch buttons, who has to run certain checks, who has to tell the flight attendants to seat for take-off, etc...

[Evan]

Score one for United.

http://avherald.com/h?article=505448d3&opt=0

This is especially disturbing coming from major US airline 777 pilots.

[TeeVee]

maybe you should add AA and UAL to your no-fly list and qatar and emirates and...