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Cessna 560 Citation V Crash - Pilot Unresponsive

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  • Cessna 560 Citation V Crash - Pilot Unresponsive

    This private jet strayed into protected Washington DC airspace and prompted an intercept. The F-16 crew reported that the pilot did not respond to flares. There were three passengers aboard and apparently a single pilot (the Cessna 560 Citation V is single-pilot rated). The jet then descended at a reported 20,000fpm into a forest.

    Decompression seem like the most obvious cause. There isn't enough data yet to know if the rapid descent was powered or the result of fuel exhaustion (and loss of autopilot). But wouldn't we see some sort of broad, spiraling phugoid path there?

    Another mystery. At least it ended in an unpopulated area. I'm hoping they seriously review the idea of single-pilot certification for private aircraft at this scale.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Another mystery. At least it ended in an unpopulated area. I'm hoping they seriously review the idea of single-pilot certification for private aircraft at this scale.
    Are you serious? They are seriously reviewing the idea of single-pilot certification for commercial airliners.

    On a more serious note, I don't think your comment is justified based on data. In what %of crashes of "aircraft of this scale" certified for sinlge-pilot was being flown by a single pilot a causal link in the chain of events? This a private activity, let the private owners / operators decide (to some degree) the risk they want to afford. Being certified for single pilot doesn't mean that you HAVE to fly them single pilot. Moreover, the pilot also needs to be be especially certified to fly a twin jet single-pilot. And what is the threshold for "this scale" anyway? What about a King Air or a Pilatus PC12?

    If hypoxia is your concern, perhaps it would be better to address that instead of single-pilot ops. Note 2 pilots have fallen under hypoxia too (not only Helios but also Payne Stewar's Learjet accident).

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

      Are you serious? They are seriously reviewing the idea of single-pilot certification for commercial airliners.

      On a more serious note, I don't think your comment is justified based on data. In what %of crashes of "aircraft of this scale" certified for sinlge-pilot was being flown by a single pilot a causal link in the chain of events? This a private activity, let the private owners / operators decide (to some degree) the risk they want to afford. Being certified for single pilot doesn't mean that you HAVE to fly them single pilot. Moreover, the pilot also needs to be be especially certified to fly a twin jet single-pilot. And what is the threshold for "this scale" anyway? What about a King Air or a Pilatus PC12?

      If hypoxia is your concern, perhaps it would be better to address that instead of single-pilot ops. Note 2 pilots have fallen under hypoxia too (not only Helios but also Payne Stewar's Learjet accident).
      The thing is Gabriel (and this is physics) planes falling out of the sky is everybody's risk. And the bigger and more fuel-laden the bigger the risk. I think anything over 8000 lbs empty should have a second pilot fallback, and the CRM would tend to prevent things like forgetting to don oxygen as the very first action after a decompression.

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      • #4
        Ok, you are officially insane.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #5
          This resembles the Payne Stewart incident. There were passengers on the plane so I don’t think a simple pilot medical emergency.

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          • #6
            Agree 110% on the single pilot in any high performance turbine aircraft. And no, military fighters don't count.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
              Agree 110% on the single pilot in any high performance turbine aircraft. And no, military fighters don't count.
              It's officially insane but I would prefer it to this madness. But we'll have to wait until one of these jets craters an elementary school instead of a remote forest. Then, yeah, it won't seem sooo insane...

              The turnback flight path adds a dimension of perplexity to this. The pilot was observed slumped over the controls, which would explain the sustained dive once the autopilot gave out.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                Agree 110% on the single pilot in any high performance turbine aircraft. And no, military fighters don't count.
                Define high performance and define turbine. Turboprops count?
                Cessna Caravan? King Air? A 6-seats TBM or Epic E-1000? A Piper Meridian? Kodiak 100? Cirrus Jet single? (I assume that you would not put the Pilatus PC-6 Porter in the "high performance" category?)

                Why? What is the rationale?

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  It's officially insane but I would prefer it to this madness. But we'll have to wait until one of these jets craters an elementary school instead of a remote forest. Then, yeah, it won't seem sooo insane...

                  The turnback flight path adds a dimension of perplexity to this. The pilot was observed slumped over the controls, which would explain the sustained dive once the autopilot gave out.
                  Waiting for 2 truck drivers in each truck. Much more dangerous and kill many more people.

                  By you standard (anything above 5000 pounds), a light piston tween like a Baron would require 2 pilots. Yes, that's insane, or madness, which is the same.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post

                    The thing is Gabriel (and this is physics) planes falling out of the sky is everybody's risk. And the bigger and more fuel-laden the bigger the risk. I think anything over 8000 lbs empty should have a second pilot fallback, and the CRM would tend to prevent things like forgetting to don oxygen as the very first action after a decompression.
                    Why specifically 8,000lbs?

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                    • #11
                      I’m not sure about this but isn’t there a regulation applied in dual pilot commercial operations that requires the donning of an oxygen mask by the pilot flying if the other pilot leaves the cockpit for any reason? Should not a commercially operated business jet with just one person in the cockpit have that one person wearing an oxygen mask?
                      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                        Define high performance and define turbine. Turboprops count?
                        Cessna Caravan? King Air? A 6-seats TBM or Epic E-1000? A Piper Meridian? Kodiak 100? Cirrus Jet single? (I assume that you would not put the Pilatus PC-6 Porter in the "high performance" category?)

                        Why? What is the rationale?
                        High performance cruise over 200 knots. Caravan no, King Air, TBM etc. yes. Need to use your head here a little Gabe. I operated a Cessna 441 for 3000+ hours single pilot IFR. There were plenty of times that I would have liked to have a second pilot on board.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                          Why specifically 8,000lbs?
                          Just a rough number I threw out to allow for piston twins and small t-props but not light-midsize jets and large t-props. The Citation V is just under 10,000lbs empty. The PC-24 is a bit heavier still.

                          But I defer to BoeingBobby here. The criteria isn't just weight. The criteria should be piloting workload, a need for multi-pilot CRM and potential for destruction in populated areas.

                          I think you will agree that sudden decompression is a high-workload situation and that there is a very good reason for a memorized procedure that involves calling out for masks at that moment. Overlook that for half a minute and...

                          Also, this could have been a more gradual decompression (maybe with the alarm inop). Or something else altogether. The ADS-B plots are truly a mystery. Where it should have begun its descent to the destination, the flight remained at cruise speed and altitude while reversing course from around 40 to 240 and then flew that course and altitude for another hour before going into what seems like a spiraling rapid descent.

                          And, with no flight recorders (these should also be mandatory for this category) it will probably remain a mystery.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                            Waiting for 2 truck drivers in each truck. Much more dangerous and kill many more people.

                            By you standard (anything above 5000 pounds), a light piston tween like a Baron would require 2 pilots. Yes, that's insane, or madness, which is the same.
                            The Beechcraft Baron is 3156lbs empty. But I raised that to 8000lbs to allow for even larger piston twins and light t-props. But weight shouldn't be the only criteria.

                            Anyway, your logic of calling one safety measure absurd because not everything else is safe is quite insane. We could require two drivers in trucks large enough to destroy an elementary school (modified, of course, with dual controls and CRM and all that, and cabin pressurization in a hypoxic atmosphere, and with the need to navigate in IMC and communicate with Truck-Traffic-Control while traveling at 400+ mph), but then what about meteors?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post

                              Just a rough number I threw out to allow for piston twins and small t-props but not light-midsize jets and large t-props. The Citation V is just under 10,000lbs empty. The PC-24 is a bit heavier still.

                              But I defer to BoeingBobby here. The criteria isn't just weight. The criteria should be piloting workload, a need for multi-pilot CRM and potential for destruction in populated areas.

                              I think you will agree that sudden decompression is a high-workload situation and that there is a very good reason for a memorized procedure that involves calling out for masks at that moment. Overlook that for half a minute and...

                              Also, this could have been a more gradual decompression (maybe with the alarm inop). Or something else altogether. The ADS-B plots are truly a mystery. Where it should have begun its descent to the destination, the flight remained at cruise speed and altitude while reversing course from around 40 to 240 and then flew that course and altitude for another hour before going into what seems like a spiraling rapid descent.

                              And, with no flight recorders (these should also be mandatory for this category) it will probably remain a mystery.
                              Payne Stewart's airplane had two pilots. Helios did, too.

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