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  • CRM

    This is interesting. I’m ass-uming that instead of calling out whatever WHEN it happened (Good CRM), someone tattled later.


    Airline Feud Escalates: United Pilots Barred From Southwest Airlines Jump Seats After Controversial Incident
    by Gary Leff on May 9, 2024

    Several Southwest Airlines pilots have been refusing to allow United pilots to fly in their jump seats, following an incident where a ‘relatively new’ United pilot (recently hired from a regional carrier) reported a safety incident she observed while jumpseating.

    Pilots often live in one city, but are based in another, and nonrev to their base to start their trips. Since they can take a cockpit jumpseat, it’s easier for them to do this than for a flight attendant, because they’re mostly competing with other pilots for the space and not with passengers on full flights. However access to the jumpseat is at the captain’s discretion.

    Boeing 787 Cockpit

    Aviation watchdog JonNYC reported on the issue, along with internal messages from the United Airlines pilot union about how this was handled.

    A newer hire at United jumpseated on SWA recently from SFO-SAN and after the flight was over, decided she would notify the FAA on the inadequacies of the crew whose jumpseat they graciously offered.

    Not going to name names but for gods sake, please mentor our newer hires on how to Jumpseat properly and keep your damn mouth shut. At the very least, if you see something incorrect or wrong, very politely query the crew, if you feel you must, and let them explain themselves, if they choose to.

    If they choose not to and you are not satisfied, please contact our Jumpseat Committee and let them handle it. Running to the FAA and skipping Rob’s Committee is not the way to do this and I’d think that common sense will prevail but here we are.

    Personally I don’t say jack while I’m riding and am basically a very polite doormat. I’ve got to say I’m not surprised by this as some of our newer folks just seem to not get it at times and I’m not really sure how we can prevent this from happening in the future.

    Rightly or wrongly, some of the SWA guys and gals are starting to turn down our Pilots as this story winds it [sic] way around their seniority list. Please share your thoughs on this with the people you fly with and remind them that Jumpseating is a privilege and not a right. Many of our pilots depend on a ride from SWA and to be turned down because of someone else’s foolishness is unforgivable.Airline Feud Escalates: United Pilots Barred From Southwest Airlines Jump Seats After Controversial Incident
    by Gary Leff on May 9, 2024

    Several Southwest Airlines pilots have been refusing to allow United pilots to fly in their jump seats, following an incident where a ‘relatively new’ United pilot (recently hired from a regional carrier) reported a safety incident she observed while jumpseating.

    Pilots often live in one city, but are based in another, and nonrev to their base to start their trips. Since they can take a cockpit jumpseat, it’s easier for them to do this than for a flight attendant, because they’re mostly competing with other pilots for the space and not with passengers on full flights. However access to the jumpseat is at the captain’s discretion.

    Boeing 787 Cockpit

    Aviation watchdog JonNYC reported on the issue, along with internal messages from the United Airlines pilot union about how this was handled.

    A newer hire at United jumpseated on SWA recently from SFO-SAN and after the flight was over, decided she would notify the FAA on the inadequacies of the crew whose jumpseat they graciously offered.

    Not going to name names but for gods sake, please mentor our newer hires on how to Jumpseat properly and keep your damn mouth shut. At the very least, if you see something incorrect or wrong, very politely query the crew, if you feel you must, and let them explain themselves, if they choose to.

    If they choose not to and you are not satisfied, please contact our Jumpseat Committee and let them handle it. Running to the FAA and skipping Rob’s Committee is not the way to do this and I’d think that common sense will prevail but here we are.

    Personally I don’t say jack while I’m riding and am basically a very polite doormat. I’ve got to say I’m not surprised by this as some of our newer folks just seem to not get it at times and I’m not really sure how we can prevent this from happening in the future.

    Rightly or wrongly, some of the SWA guys and gals are starting to turn down our Pilots as this story winds it [sic] way around their seniority list. Please share your thoughs on this with the people you fly with and remind them that Jumpseating is a privilege and not a right. Many of our pilots depend on a ride from SWA and to be turned down because of someone else’s foolishness is unforgivable.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    Are you a bot?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Are you a bot?
      I saw something interesting, and forwarded it.

      In order to properly credit it, I did copy/paste the redundant text…not_unlike a bot…

      That being said, does your perfect vision of pilots regurgitating type-specific memory checklists, not_also represent bot-like behavior? How about the act of keeping a bicycle balanced?

      The subtleties of CRM and the original incident are a bit interesting.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting how all the article goes around the fact that the new hire reported something to the FAA and how all the procedures around that reporting were violated, but not about WHAT was reported and how actual flight operations procedures may have been violated. Someone reported a violation, everybody looking at the report and the reporter, nobody looking at the (potential) violation and violators.

        Sometimes what is NOT_said is interesting. Like the non_quote “the SWA pilots did nothing wrong”.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          Some times what is NOT_said is…
          …the fault of the worthless media.

          Concur, that those details might matter.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            There were at least two Tyrolean Airways serious incidents which caused an official investigation (and quite a few other incidents without official investigations)
            In both cases these incidents had been report be foreign airline pilots sitting on the jump seat. Otherwise these hairraising incidents probably would have never surfaced.
            That's one of them:

            2316_D.pdf (admin.ch)​ (German)

            Comment


            • #7
              Remember what I said about being glad that I am retired?. I had many Captains over the years while I was jump seating that would pull out the master scab list and see if I was on it. I have heard stories...

              Comment


              • #8
                I am glad you posted it 3WE, I have sent it to at least a dozen old timers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  …the fault of the worthless media.
                  But this doesn't seem to be written by the media...

                  Not going to name names but for gods sake, please mentor our newer hires on how to Jumpseat properly and keep your damn mouth shut. Personally I don’t say jack while I’m riding.
                  What a safety-culture-oriented role model, uh? Whatever happened with "if you see something that you don't like, speak up, you might be right"

                  Now, we don't know what, if anything, actually happened.

                  It might have been a perfectly compliant performance by the pilots with just one very minor exception...

                  - Landing checklist complete. By the way, how is Tom doing?
                  - He's fully recovered now, thanks for asking. One thousand.
                  - Stabilized, Continue.

                  And they were reported for violating the sterile cockpit.

                  Or.... they could have been violently arguing about politics the whole approach, not briefed anything, not run any checklist, not being stabilized and not even bothering to check and confirm if stabilized or not, not having gone around after a "terrain - woop woop - pull up" warning, lowered the landing gear only after the "too low- gear" warning, and busted minimums.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                    I had many Captains over the years while I was jump seating that would pull out the master scab list and see if I was on it. I have heard stories...
                    I didn't get that. May be a language barrier thing on my end.
                    Oh and I would love to hear (or read) the one of those stories you've heard.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      I am glad you posted it 3WE, I have sent it to at least a dozen old timers.
                      Yes, it seemed like a strange story.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                        I didn't get that. May be a language barrier thing on my end.
                        Oh and I would love to hear (or read) the one of those stories you've heard.
                        A SCAB, is someone that busted a Union strike and either flew anyway, or took a job as a new hire. We had quite a few at Atlas. I have heard of a couple of guys that were on the list asked by the Captain to vacate the jump seat.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          This is JUST the first of 50 pages but I think you will get the jist.



                          THIS IS THE US MASTER PILOT SCABLIST THE UNIONIST’S EDITION


                          A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You’d be Doing if You Weren’t on Strike.
                          A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes
                          and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your
                          profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he
                          think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities
                          and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that
                          which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.
                          ONCE A SCAB, ALWAYS A SCAB - NEVER FORGET!
                          Below are brief notes about legal strikes by organized pilots.
                          1. Century Airlines 1932: Pilots struck to resist wage reduction by E.L Cord, the patron saint of Frank Lorenzo.
                          2. TWA 1946: Pilots struck over pay on faster 4 engine aircraft, limited by the provisions of Decision 83.
                          3. National Airlines 1948: Strike over aircraft safety and repeated violations of the labor contract.
                          4. Western Airlines 1958: Qualifications of the Flight Engineer.
                          5. Southern Airways 1960: Strike over wage rates at regional carrier vs. larger airline.
                          6. Rio Airways 1976: Pilots represented by the Union of Professional Airmen, an ALPA affiliate, struck over issues of seniority, pay, safety and
                          system board neutrality after failing to negotiate first contract.
                          7. Wien Air Alaska 1977: Crew complement on B-727.
                          8. Continental Airlines 1983: Struck to resist Frank Lorenzo’s use of Bankruptcy Law to abrogate labor contracts.
                          9. Pan American 1985: Pilots MEC elected to honor TWU picket line. These people did not honor that strike.
                          10. United Airlines 1985: Forced by mgmt to strike over B-Scale pay rates and the company attempt to break UAL ALPA.
                          11. Eastern Airlines 1989: Pilots honored IAM picket lines against Frank Lorenzo’ s asset-stripping of EAL to favor Continental.
                          12. AFAP 1989: Australian Federation of Air Pilots at 4 domestic airlines quit to protect retirement after disputing government wage control
                          program. Some Americans, among others, happily filled in.
                          13 Comair 2001: Pilots struck over poor pay and work rules. They fought to end the second class treatment of all Small Jet pilots.
                          Other Notes: The "Ident" column gives employee number, Soc. Sec. #, date of birth (dob), ATP number, date of hire (doh), or other means of
                          identification. "Seniority Suit" means those Scabs at UAL who sued the union and the company to prevent the 570 from regaining their proper
                          seniority position. "Fleet Qualified" (FQ, Flt Qual, etc.) are those hired off the street under a special pay plan and with promises of super-seniority
                          to replace union pilots at United. ALPA – Some scabs are ALPA members because the ’85 Back-to-Work agreement forced the union not to
                          “discriminate” against the back-stabbers who tried to steal their jobs and seniority. Some Scabs never resigned from the union and continue to
                          pay dues. Some scabs did some penance and were forgiven by ALPA (but NOT forgotten) and re-admitted. Some simply fell through the cracks
                          and got into the union after a merger, name change, etc (PAA). A date for an EAL Scab is his date of hire, no date means he’s old Eastern. "???"
                          by an EAL Scab means that the name appeared on several Scab lists during the strike but was absent from the final list. Other remarks show
                          past Employers or other claims to infamy. MOST Scabs at CAL have a LETTER at the END of their employee number (but not all have this). The
                          Continental “Preferential Hire” List is on the last page. Most employee numbers are listed (ie 0220B).
                          **For any corrections/additions/updates PLEASE email [email protected]!**
                          HERE IS A SUMMARY OF THE NUMBER OF SCABS FROM EACH AIRLINE:
                          Air North Summary AirNorth Both Scabs Listed
                          Australian Summary AFAP 89 85 America West & Braniff Scabs
                          Century Summary Century 1 Scab Identified Thus Far
                          Continental Summary CAL 83 2,019 Scabs listed
                          Eastern Summary EAL 89 2,255 Scabs Listed
                          National Summary NAL 48 101 Scabs listed out of 167 total
                          Northwest Summary NWA 78 34 Scabs listed
                          Pan American Summary PAA 85 139 Scabs listed
                          Prinair Summary Prinair 2 Scabs listed
                          Rio Airways Summary RIO 76 43 Scabs listed
                          Southern Summary SOU 60 205 Scabs listed
                          TWA Summary TWA 46 2 Scabs listed
                          United Summary UAL 85 935 Scabs listed
                          Western Summary WAL 58 3 Scabs listed
                          Wien Air Alaska Summmary WAA 77 82 Scabs listed
                          Comair Summary CMR 01 3 Scabs listed
                          TOTAL LISTED SCABS 5,911 (Century & NAL incomplete)
                          Dignity does not consist in possessing honors, but in deserving them
                          Aristotle
                          The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
                          Edmund Burke
                          People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
                          Eric Hoffer
                          We should forgive our enemies, but only after they have been hanged first
                          Heinrich Heine
                          What a man is speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what he says
                          Emerson
                          It is better to die while standing on your feet than to be living on your knees
                          Emilio Zap​

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                            A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You’d be Doing if You Weren’t on Strike.
                            Well, then I've been a SCAB.

                            A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes
                            and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your
                            profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he
                            think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities
                            and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that
                            which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.
                            ONCE A SCAB, ALWAYS A SCAB - NEVER FORGET!
                            Wait! Which of the 2 is the correct definition?
                            I know that a person may decide not to join a strike for reasons other than wanting personal benefit at the expense of others.

                            For example, when I did it it was because I was totally morally against the strike and the underlying demands.
                            And I didn't get ANYTHING by not striking. Not even salary that the others would not get because as part of the negotiations to end the strike they ended up getting paid for the days they were on strike too. I didn't expect to get anything either. I was just at peace with my conscience for not joining what, in my view, was an unjustified, politically motivated strike. In fact, I had left the union long before the strike took place because I had zero respect for their leaders, their politics and behavior.

                            (I don't know in the States but in Argentina you can leave the union but you are still subject to the agreements between the union and the company, which is part of what I was against because I, or nobody, could not get a salary increase due to performance or merit without a promotion because the salary for each category was defined in the bargain, and if the company decided to pay more to une individual the Union would complain).

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Most airlines are "closed shop" meaning that you are going to pay dues whether you want to or not. You have pilot's not flying and walking a picket line. Assuming you are a flight crew member for an airline, are you going to fly anyway? You going to apply for a job and take a Captains seat because you already have the type even though a 12 year First Officer is walking the line? If I posted the other 49 pages, you would see that there are many that did.
                              I was offered a First Officer position at United in 1985 and Eastern in 1989. When I was told that I would have to fly during any work stoppage, I asked for a ticket home from Denver after 5 days of written tests, medical exams and simulator rides. At Eastern I just walked out the door got in my car and drove home.

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