Atlas, (too) low drag, low power approach technique?

[BoeingBobby]

What's route qualification? The first time I flew into Singapore, Melbourne and JFK I had copilots with me who hadn't been there before either.
JFK was especially interesting because both of us had never flown into the U.S. before and this guy was one of the worst copies on our fleet, which means I had to do comms for the most part of the flight on the other side of the pond as well.
In the late 80s there wasn't even a airport qualification for Innsbruck available/required.

The problem is that they don't understand! Or don't believe.
When I got on at Atlas, almost all of the Captains were ex military (89th presidential pilots) or Pan Am, TWA erc. They were almost all a joy to fly with and would instruct if you wanted to learn. My absolute favorite to fly with would turn to me on every flight and ask "are you ready for the lesson of the day?" Sometimes it was something trivial but most often it was something that I used for the rest of my career. After I upgraded I tried to do the same. The problem was that the new generation of glass and FMS pilots told me that they already knew everything and there wasn't anything I could teach them.
Funny how almost all of them had no idea of ICAO radio procedures. You are flying into Korea and they ask the controller for a landing on the "left" side, or we're looking for lower instead of requesting a decent. Once again I am glad to be retired! With over 27000 hours and 47 years as a professional pilot, the last thing I need to do is prove myself to some young whippersnapper.

[ATLcrew]

The problem is that they don't understand! Or don't believe.
When I got on at Atlas, almost all of the Captains were ex military (89th presidential pilots) or Pan Am, TWA erc. They were almost all a joy to fly with and would instruct if you wanted to learn. My absolute favorite to fly with would turn to me on every flight and ask "are you ready for the lesson of the day?" Sometimes it was something trivial but most often it was something that I used for the rest of my career. After I upgraded I tried to do the same. The problem was that the new generation of glass and FMS pilots told me that they already knew everything and there wasn't anything I could teach them.
Funny how almost all of them had no idea of ICAO radio procedures. You are flying into Korea and they ask the controller for a landing on the "left" side, or we're looking for lower instead of requesting a decent. Once again I am glad to be retired! With over 27000 hours and 47 years as a professional pilot, the last thing I need to do is prove myself to some young whippersnapper.

You know, Bobby, there's being a mentor, and then there's being a patronizing fossilized codger that nobody misses when he's gone. Could it be that those "FMS and Glass pilots" were not receptive because you were treating them like "young whippersnappers" rather than like professional aviators who, oddly enough, had the same type rating as you, got hired by the same company as you, passed the same new hire/recurrent training as you, and some possibly even knew how the autobrake system worked on a 74? If they were all telling you there was "nothing you could teach them", maybe you just sucked at teaching...

I've now flown with quite a few people who were born AFTER I started flight school, quite a few who went into an A320 right after being a CFI. And yet, I am yet to hear anything to the effect "there is nothing you can teach me." I wonder if that might be because I would never open with "are you ready for the lesson of the day?" That's demeaning and disrespectful, these people are not students. So, I usually go with something like "would you like to see a technique I learned for this?" or "here is an easier way of doing this" or "in the manual (I will show a reference) it says to do it this and such way." You'd be amazed how well that works, just like you'd be amazed how much I have learned from THEM. I don't shove my logbook in people's faces, it's not relevant to anything, I can still make a mistake same as a 1,000hr guy. And if I treat him like a kid, he'll let me make that mistake, and who will blame him?

I, too, am glad you're retired, you're much better off in that Cub of yours with that attitude.

[bstolle]

You'd be amazed how well that works, just like you'd be amazed how much I have learned from THEM.

Actually I was almost shocked how much the young copilots knew when I was just past 50. Most of them had a degree in aeronautics or something similar.
They knew things I would love to have known decades earlier!
I did feel pretty old and almost outdated in the last few years. The only advantage I had was experience and airplane handling.

[Evan]

and some possibly even knew how the autobrake system worked on a 74?

Still beating him up over that one? First of all, it was the antiskid hydraulics function, and, in Bobby’s defense, nobody should expect a professional aviator to know the airplane systems on that deep level of engineering. Leave that to nerds like us. Commercial pilots are rarely engineers, and vice-versa. They can’t all be Gabriel.

[3WE]

Still beating him up over that one? First of all, it was the antiskid hydraulics function, and, in Bobby’s defense, nobody should expect a professional aviator to know the airplane systems on that deep level of engineering. Leave that to nerds like us. Commercial pilots are rarely engineers, and vice-versa. They can’t all be Gabriel.

And yet, an agronomist used common sense to say “Geemanitly, an aborted takeoff MIGHT be a good time to not_lock the tires up” so whatever the phugoid you call the system, “I ass-ume it works.”

I’m not going after Bobby as much as you for focusing on type specific crap instead of the fundamental purpose of the system.

I’ve been on the receiving end of ATL’s corrections myself…in hindsight, I said some things that were awfully off-base, and said them with great authority.

Just the other day, someone was trying to tell me how great no-till is. I like it too, but it’s far from perfect and absolutes are often wrong.

[BoeingBobby]

You know, Bobby, there's being a mentor, and then there's being a patronizing fossilized codger that nobody misses when he's gone. Could it be that those "FMS and Glass pilots" were not receptive because you were treating them like "young whippersnappers" rather than like professional aviators who, oddly enough, had the same type rating as you, got hired by the same company as you, passed the same new hire/recurrent training as you, and some possibly even knew how the autobrake system worked on a 74? If they were all telling you there was "nothing you could teach them", maybe you just sucked at teaching...

I've now flown with quite a few people who were born AFTER I started flight school, quite a few who went into an A320 right after being a CFI. And yet, I am yet to hear anything to the effect "there is nothing you can teach me." I wonder if that might be because I would never open with "are you ready for the lesson of the day?" That's demeaning and disrespectful, these people are not students. So, I usually go with something like "would you like to see a technique I learned for this?" or "here is an easier way of doing this" or "in the manual (I will show a reference) it says to do it this and such way." You'd be amazed how well that works, just like you'd be amazed how much I have learned from THEM. I don't shove my logbook in people's faces, it's not relevant to anything, I can still make a mistake same as a 1,000hr guy. And if I treat him like a kid, he'll let me make that mistake, and who will blame him?

I, too, am glad you're retired, you're much better off in that Cub of yours with that attitude.

I never said I was the one that said are you ready for your lesson of the day. It was said to me (as I stated) by a Captain that I flew with quite often. He knew I was eager to learn and it was always said in jest and affection. But then again, that day and age is long gone in aviation.

[Gabriel]

Commercial pilots are rarely engineers, and vice-versa. They can’t all be Gabriel.

I am only one of those two things.

[Gabriel]

I did have my clashes with BB here in the forum, but the only time I met him personally, he wasn't patronizing or condescending at all, rather the opposite. He was very welcoming and kind.
And it was a veteran 747 captain vs a Tomahawk PPL with some 180hs TT and he had betted against me (and I arrived like 30 minutes late to our appointment). The cockpit gradient doesn't get any bigger than that.

[BoeingBobby]

Kinda like when you told us about how you once got handed "a -200 and a flight plan" and got sent to Katmandu without ever having been there before.

The more I thought about this, the more it pisses me off. You have called me a liar and I had always considered you one of the good guys.

Let me give you a little heads-up. I have been sent to places that most people never want to go to with no check airman, no second Captain. More than one that a 74 had never been into before. And I'm talking Kabul, Kandahar, Bagram, Baghdad and some places i am not allowed to talk about. 52 missions into hot war zones between the two Gulf Wars. 80 tons of refrigerated whole blood, packed cells and plasma. Rockets, bombs, missiles and ammunition. MRAPs, Humvees, artillery pieces, US mail, food. If the military needed it, it was downstairs. You go talk to any pilot from Kalitta, Evergreen, Southern etc. See if they don't say the exact same thing. And you have the nerve to call me a liar. How fucking dare you!

[ATLcrew]

The more I thought about this, the more it pisses me off. You have called me a liar and I had always considered you one of the good guys.

Let me give you a little heads-up. I have been sent to places that most people never want to go to with no check airman, no second Captain. More than one that a 74 had never been into before. And I'm talking Kabul, Kandahar, Bagram, Baghdad and some places i am not allowed to talk about. 52 missions into hot war zones between the two Gulf Wars. 80 tons of refrigerated whole blood, packed cells and plasma. Rockets, bombs, missiles and ammunition. MRAPs, Humvees, artillery pieces, US mail, food. If the military needed it, it was downstairs. You go talk to any pilot from Kalitta, Evergreen, Southern etc. See if they don't say the exact same thing. And you have the nerve to call me a liar. How fucking dare you!

And you've been flying since Methuselah's Greatgranpa was in kindergarten, and you have 76,000 hours, don't worry, "we" know.

[BoeingBobby]

ATL, you have proven yourself to be a real class act.