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Near collision (425 ft vsep) between two aircraft inbound to PHX

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  • Near collision (425 ft vsep) between two aircraft inbound to PHX

    I know we have a much more serious incident in Korea that's uppermost in our thoughts at the moment, but I just thought I'd post some info on the alarming TCAS-handled conflict at PHX a couple of days ago. DL1070 and UA1724 were vectored into a conflicting path on approach to PHX.

    The United and Delta flights were less than a quarter of a mile apart horizontally before the warning devices went off, officials say.


    ATC from VASAviation. Full credit to the calm handling by the pilots of both aircraft.


  • #2
    Good post. Failure of a few layers with automation not_failing.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
      Full credit to the calm handling by the pilots of both aircraft.
      No need for full, or any credit for the crew.
      This didn't come as a surprise to either of them. You usually identify a potential conflict pretty early on TCAS. (When it was new many many years ago, we use to call it self seperation device) and if not, you get the 'traffic' visual and aural alert, long before the RA.

      bernt stolle aviation photos on JetPhotos
      Bernt Stolle - Art for Sale | Fine Art America​​

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      • #4
        Does continuing the approach after recognizing a potential conflict represent a certain complacency and reliance on automation?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Does continuing the approach after recognizing a potential conflict represent a certain complacency and reliance on automation?
          No.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Evan View Post
            reliance on automation?
            What prevents the pilot from using the steering wheel and pointing the plane towards and down the runway and using fundamental visual perspective and instruments?…as they do from time to time when there hasn’t been a TCAS incident.
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #7
              What prevents the pilot from calling off the approach when the separation becomes hazardous? Or are TA’s just a common occurrence these days?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                Or are TA’s just a common occurrence these days?
                They had RAs, not only TAs.
                bernt stolle aviation photos on JetPhotos
                Bernt Stolle - Art for Sale | Fine Art America​​

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by bstolle View Post
                  They had RAs, not only TAs.
                  2:37 in the YouTube video. "Delta 1070 is responding to a TA and RA". Doesn't the TA come ahead of the RA sufficient to warn them off the approach before an RA is triggered?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    "Delta 1070 is responding to a TA and RA".
                    I don't know why he transmitted this non standard message. The standard phraseology is simply 'TCAS RA'. You can't (and shouldn't!) respond to a TA.

                    bernt stolle aviation photos on JetPhotos
                    Bernt Stolle - Art for Sale | Fine Art America​​

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Or are TA’s just a common occurrence these days?
                      TAs are pretty common, yes.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

                        TAs are pretty common, yes.
                        Let me ask you this: when you get a Traffic Advisory and are not visual with the conflicting traffic, what is it advising you to do?

                        As I understand it, it means get eyes on the other aircraft and be prepared for an RA and evasive maneuver. But what if the other aircraft is not in view?

                        I've read that only 1 in 10 TA's result in an RA, but 10% is still a big number in terms of safety.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          when you get a Traffic Advisory and are not visual with the conflicting traffic, what is it advising you to do?

                          As I understand it, it means get eyes on the other aircraft and be prepared for an RA and evasive maneuver. But what if the other aircraft is not in view?
                          The TA tells you to be prepared to follow a possible RA. (e.g. disengage the AP)

                          NO! You don't perform an evasive action by trying to establish visual contact with the conflicting aircraft, you only follow the RA commands.
                          The RA is an evasive maneuver.🤦
                          bernt stolle aviation photos on JetPhotos
                          Bernt Stolle - Art for Sale | Fine Art America​​

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            What prevents the pilot from calling off the approach when the separation becomes hazardous? Or are TA’s just a common occurrence these days?
                            Your prior post specifically said after. I get the gray area and all, but that’s a pretty big change in context.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post

                              I've read that only 1 in 10 TA's result in an RA, but 10% is still a big number in terms of safety.
                              I'm not sure where you read that, probably the same place that told you mouthdiapers were 127.336% effective, but I digress...

                              In my experience, even 1 (one) percent seems like an overestimation. I've gone years without a single RA, and I fly a lot.

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