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14 Years ago tonight-American Eagle 4184 crash

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  • 14 Years ago tonight-American Eagle 4184 crash

    Folks,
    14 Years ago on a very icy night American Eagle 4184 crashed at Roselawn, IN on it's flight from IND-ORD. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 2420&key=1
    I remember this night very well, my little brother who was 3 at the time, I was 4 and a half, didn't want to go Tricker Treating because the weather sucked and I was raining Ice. I had to wait for my Dad to come home from work. (I still think he flew the same ATR somewhere since he did a lot of flying back then), I was very angry at my brother at the time, but now I consider him the smartest person that night, when I went out it was raining ice and prorably around the time the crash happened. My Mom was freaked out about my Dad flying Eagle, then again when it comes to flying my mom is weird. As I enjoy the weather in Charleston, IL (College home) today and dressed as Joe the Plumber. I can't help but remember that October Night in 1994. I wasn't into planes then sadly (I wish I had been), but it shows to go when one little thing goes wrong it can take a bunch of lives with it.
    John Poshepny

    If the Wright brother were alive today Wilbur would have to fire Orville to reduce costs. Herb Kelleher, Southwest Airlines, 'USA Today,' 1994

  • #2
    Media reports of the crash of Flt 3407 near Buffalo made reference to a similar crash back in 1994 near Roselawn, Indiana, that of American Eagle Flight 4184, an ATR 72 aircraft, which was also a high-wing, T-tail, twin turboprop commuter aircraft. The NTSB eventually concluded that a sudden, heavy ice buildup on the wings due to flying through 'large drop' freezing rain, combined with a previously unknown mechanical defect--"aileron hinge-moment reversal"--was the root cause of the crash. However, in civil court actions against the airline and the manufacturer afterwards, the attorneys for the foreign-made ATR manufacturer of the aircraft also pointed to the inattentiveness of the crew while the plane spent almost 40 minutes in a holding pattern while awaiting clearance to land at Chicago-O'Hare, and the crew's failure to take counter-measures against ice buildup.


    Legal documents give us a little hint at what caused this 'inattentiveness' of the cockpit crew:

    http://www.cliffordlaw.com/news/atto...settlement-fly
    The 29-year-old pilot was out of the cockpit on a five-minute bathroom break, socializing with the flight attendants while the 30-year-old co-pilot tried to warn him about the ice build-up......
    "Gettin' busy with the ladies back here . . . so if I don't make it up there within the next, say, 15-20 minutes, you know why" the recorder captured the pilot telling the co-pilot over the intercom. (6 min, 20 sec before impact)

    "If you could have heard the whole transcript, you would have seen the attention of the crew was not on flying the aircraft" said an attorney for the aircraft maker.

    All the attorneys say they are bound by court order not to release the unedited version of the transcript, which apparently has quotes even more explicit than "Gettin' busy with the ladies back here. . . " amid rap music audible in the cockpit.


    http://www.bluecoat.org/reports/NTSB...selawn_ATR.pdf
    NTSB Aircraft Accident Report
    --Neither the flight attendant's presence in the cockpit nor the flightcrew's conversations with her contributed to the accident. However, a sterile cockpit environment would probably have reduced flightcrew distractions and could have promoted an appropriate level of flightcrew awareness for the conditions in which the airplane was being operated.

    ATR(manufacturer) version:
    --The failure of the flight crew to comply with basic procedures, to exercise proper situational awareness, cockpit resource management, and sterile cockpit procedures, in a known icing environment, which prevented them from exiting these conditions prior to the ice-induced roll event....

    --The flight crew of flight 4184 demonstrated a lack of involvement in primary duties....

    --...the gross distrations of this flight crew and the Captain's departure from the cockpit in known icing conditions....."

    --Based on the lack of cockpit discipline.... suggest that the report recommends that the FAA and AMR Eagle take all necessary steps to prevent the recurrence of such conduct.


    Reading between the lines, it appears the cockpit crew was more involved with 'entertaining' the cabin crew than flying the airplane(though both pilots were at the controls when the plane went on its fatal spin). Needless to say, the major media and the investigators didn't mention this aspect of the crash. The point is that the crash investigators will not always give us the whole truth, and the media might willingly go along with a coverup.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm not so sure I would call this a "cover up". CVR information is not something that normally gets released to the public. Not to be rude or anything, but I read another one of your posts in the Buffalo crash. Do you belong to any "conspiracy theory" groups??

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by scottkin View Post
        I'm not so sure I would call this a "cover up".
        So had you heard of this before? I don't think this story of cockpit hanky-panky ever made it to the mainstream media. And the lawyers for the aircraft manufacturer certainly though it relevant to the subsequent fatal crash.

        Originally posted by scottkin View Post
        CVR information is not something that normally gets released to the public.
        Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Like I sez, what are they trying to hide?


        Originally posted by scottkin View Post
        Not to be rude or anything, but I read another one of your posts in the Buffalo crash. Do you belong to any "conspiracy theory" groups??
        Not to be rude or anything, but what does that have to do with the relevancy of my questions?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by starviego View Post
          Snip

          Not to be rude or anything, but what does that have to do with the relevancy of my questions?
          Could be the cover up suggestion, Could be the suggestion of terrorism, could be your other post....
          Don
          Standard practice for managers around the world:
          Ready - Fire - Aim! DAMN! Missed again!

          Comment


          • #6
            Could be the cover up suggestion, Could be the suggestion of terrorism....
            So I guess in your safe little corner of the universe, cover-ups and terrorism don't happen?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by starviego View Post
              So I guess in your safe little corner of the universe, cover-ups and terrorism don't happen?
              I dont think myself or Don think that at all. I Just dont believe the NTSB is involved with anything remotely considered a cover-up. To consider a "sterile" cockpit on a majority of flights is just nonsense. If the NTSB thought that any action taking place in the cockpit had relevance to solving an accident, we would know.

              P.S. I also believe we actually landed on the moon too!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by scottkin View Post
                If the NTSB thought that any action taking place in the cockpit had relevance to solving an accident, we would know.
                I agree. Reading this, I thought of an Eastern Airlines crash in CLT many years ago where the crew was discussing a great deal that the captain got on a used car after they were inside the final approach fix on a non precision approach.

                Another one: Continental DC9 landed gear up in IAH a few years ago. Part of the conversation, again inside the FAF centered around how the weather (rain) was going to ruin the captain's planned tennis match.

                If the conversation was relevant to the Roselawn accident, the transcript would have been made available.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by scottkin View Post
                  I dont think myself or Don think that at all. I Just dont believe the NTSB is involved with anything remotely considered a cover-up. To consider a "sterile" cockpit on a majority of flights is just nonsense. If the NTSB thought that any action taking place in the cockpit had relevance to solving an accident, we would know.

                  P.S. I also believe we actually landed on the moon too!!
                  Originally posted by Falconer View Post
                  I agree. Reading this, I thought of an Eastern Airlines crash in CLT many years ago where the crew was discussing a great deal that the captain got on a used car after they were inside the final approach fix on a non precision approach.

                  Another one: Continental DC9 landed gear up in IAH a few years ago. Part of the conversation, again inside the FAF centered around how the weather (rain) was going to ruin the captain's planned tennis match.

                  If the conversation was relevant to the Roselawn accident, the transcript would have been made available.
                  gents -- per the facts of the case, captain was in back flirting with f/a's for 5 minutes up to 6 min. pre-crash. f/o asked him to come back to cockpit due to icing. a/c was in holding 40 minutes in severe icing. cap's response to f/o on intercom was something like it was more important [to him] to continue the flirting. around 75 pax died

                  no doubt, the atr had design flaws re. icing and de icing. no doubt also, only one of the 2 factors [design flaw or lack of cockpit discipline] would not have led to accident.

                  but if you don't believe the captain's actions were inappropriate [to be kind] and contributed significantly to 75 innocent pax dying, then you must also believe that we landed on the moon to flirt with all the cute martians vacationing there.

                  stuff happens, for sure. we all fall short at times. but i fail to see how protecting pilots who choose to really misbehave or ignore their training and their responsibilities is helpful to the profession.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No it's not helpful for the profession, but it obfuscates the actual blame so that the lawyers don't know who to sue.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by starviego View Post
                      So I guess in your safe little corner of the universe, cover-ups and terrorism don't happen?
                      Not to ATRs going from IND to ORD.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        14 Years ago tonight-American Eagle 4184 crash

                        NEW YORK (AP) -- A US Airways pilot ditched his disabled jetliner into the frigid Hudson River on Thursday afternoon after a collision with a flock of birds apparently knocked out both engines, but officials said rescuers pulled all 155 people on board into boats as the plane sank.
                        There were no immediate reports of any serious injuries.
                        Mayor Michael Bloomberg, an experienced pilot, said it appeared the pilot did "a masterful job of landing the plane in the river and then making sure everybody got out." And Gov. David Patterson pronounced it "a miracle on the Hudson."
                        Flight 1549 went down minutes after takeoff from LaGuardia Airport for Charlotte, N.C., splashing into the river near 48th Street in midtown Manhattan.
                        "There were eyewitness reports the plane may have flown into a flock of birds," said Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Laura Brown. "Right now we don't have any indication this was anything other than an accident."
                        Passenger Jeff Kolodjay of Norwalk, Conn., said he heard an explosion two or three minutes into the flight, looked out the left side of the Airbus A320 and saw one of the engines on fire.
                        "The captain said, `Brace for impact because we're going down,'" Kolodjay said. He said passengers put their heads in their laps and started praying. He said the plane hit the water pretty hard, but he was fine.
                        "It was intense. It was intense. You've got to give it to the pilot. He made a hell of a landing," Kolodjay said.
                        The plane was submerged in the icy waters up to the windows when rescuers in police and Coast Guard vessels and ferry boats arrived, opened the door and pulled passengers in yellow life vests from the aircraft, whose fuselage appeared intact. The plane was sinking in the near-freezing water on one of the coldest days of the year, with the mercury around 20 degrees.
                        Police divers rescued a few people from the water, Bloomberg said. Other passengers were able to walk out onto the wings, then onto rescue boats.
                        Paramedics treated at least 78 patients, fire officials said. The Coast Guard said it rescued 35 people who were immersed in the cold water and ferried them to shore. Most were sent to hospitals. No information was released on their condition.
                        bookmarks

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bookmarkmaster View Post
                          NEW YORK (AP) -- A US Airways pilot ditched his disabled jetliner into the frigid Hudson River on Thursday afternoon........
                          Um.....what? Why have you posted this?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AJ View Post
                            Um.....what? Why have you posted this?


                            lol...what a great first post

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Some peoples kids..lol

                              Comment

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