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We are talking about the same. I am saying as well that action need to be taken, but first wait and see what the report brings. Maybe some other reasons we don't know about lead to this as well. Maybe not only 100% the crews fault - who knows... I don't like to jump onto conclusions without knowing what exactly happened.
Who's fault is it then? Did someone get on the airfield and change signs around?
Edited to add that I am not trying to be ugly...it just seems obvious that the crew make a terrible error that could have killed (potentially) hundreds of people, and ATC alone cannot be blamed for it.
Last edited by Myndee; 2010-02-28, 00:58.
Reason: apologetic
I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.
Who's fault is it then? Did someone get on the airfield and change signs around?
Edited to add that I am not trying to be ugly...it just seems obvious that the crew make a terrible error that could have killed (potentially) hundreds of people, and ATC alone cannot be blamed for it.
I am not blaming anybody. I am just saying that it needs to be investigated. For sure the crew carries a huge part of the guilt in that case. But I don't like it when people jump onto conclusions. We all haven't been there when this happened so we do not know what circumstances lead to that serious incident... I am not saying it is not the crews fault, I am not saying it is ATCs fault. I am not pointing my finger at anybody... I just want to wait and see what the investigation brings.
Always see the whole picture...
I think, what Wilco is after is to find a reason, why this happened, so that appropriate actions can be taken to prevent it in future. Hanging and frying the pilots won't help here. Shoot first and ask later doesn't work either. During these investigations, they will find out what happened and whose fault it was.
I understand that there are a lot variables that could factor into this situation. If there were no signs, or if they were moved as a prank (a bad one) or something (?), and if they weren't familiar with the airport, I can understand a little better.
It's like if I drove the wrong-way on a one-way street and hit or nearly hit someone. Ultimately, it would be my fault because for whatever reason (didn't know the area, was intoxicated, not paying attention, saw someone else do it, no driver's education) I made the choice to go that way, and I would surely be held responsbile for it. Now, if the warning signs were missing or incorrect, then I couldn't be held responsible, if that was the only reason I was there in the first place.
I am not putting down the point of view that nothing is final until all of the facts come out. I'm just sayin'.
I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.
They took off on a taxiway, that's exactly what happened. Stick a fork in them. Give them paper hats and name tags. Get them the hell out of the cockpit.
Ok. I give up.
We have no standardisation around the world for airport markings, signage nor lighting, and airport layouts that are just asking for trouble.
We have hundreds of issues that need solving, and yet, yes... we'll just blame the pilots for making the error... yes... that will stop it happening again .
I know two pilots that will never take off on a taxiway again... but we'll sack them anyway.
Evan et al... many here have put a lot of time into trying to share our hard-earned knowledge about improving safety a scientific, managed and measured way... but its clearly falling on deaf ears.
Why don't people start blaming the airport operators (and regulators) that have airports poorly marked, incorrectly signed as per ICAO and other regulations, and who don't use layouts that prevent runway incursions?
Airports are prepared to spend hundreds of millions on a new duty free in a terminal, but try and get 5 million out of an airport operator to put in an arrestor bed, and what do you think you get?
How about $20,000 to move some signs around? No, sorry, we can't do that either.
Councils consistently allow large buildings to be built near airports causing windshear and turbulence on finals. But no, we'll blame the pilot when he has a hard landing.
We know that takeoffs occur on taxiways, and we also know some airport layouts that almost remove this threat. After say 10 taxiway takeoffs, who is more to blame? The 11th pilot that does it? Or the airport operator and regulator who sit there and do nothing?
If a council knows about a pothole in a road, and another car crashes because they elected not to repair it, they would be sued for every cent. So, why aren't people blaming the airport operator?
Evan et al... many here have put a lot of time into trying to share our hard-earned knowledge about improving safety a scientific, managed and measured way... but its clearly falling on deaf ears.
If a council knows about a pothole in a road, and another car crashes because they elected not to repair it, they would be sued for every cent. So, why aren't people blaming the airport operator?
Well, when you consider that Evan et al expect the airlines to operate their own heavy SAR outfits, it's hard to expect much logic after that.
Ah well, what am I arguing about?! It is the pilots fault - as usual... 100% without a doubt
That shows me once again why I shoulndn't post in forums
Now now. I didn't say that. I left room for the possibility of something else going wrong, and you should post because you are intelligent.
MCM- I know that you are a pilot and you are excellent at what you do. I value your opinion more than anyone else on here. I was just trying to make a point from the side of someone that is not a pilot. Like i said in my post, if the signs (or lights) weren't there, it cannot be the driver's fault.
You have to understand it is scary for those of us who sit in the back to know that there is a possibilty that our pilots might take off in the wrong place and there is nothing we can do about it. People like me don't want anything to go wrong after I have stepped on to the aircraft.
So, please understand that I am not speaking badly of you or anyone else.
I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.
Now now. I didn't say that. I left room for the possibility of something else going wrong, and you should post because you are intelligent.
I posted a lot in the thread, tried to make my point clear, but it feels like I am misunderstood or not being listened to.
I am a pilot myself and I know how easily mistakes can happen and I am trying all I can do to avoid them and that nothing bad or serious happens...
Anyway, this is it...
In Evan's defense, that comment about putting a fork in these pilots was very un-Evan-like.
I guess even I have my limits. Frankly, incidents like this seem to lack any other conclusion. MCM, WILCO et al, I am here to learn, but I don't accept everything that is told to me as gospel unless I can see the logic in it.
MCM, I share your frustration with regard to the lack of standardization on airport requirements. What can you tell me about conditions at this particular airport?
And please, by all means, explain to me how a qualified pilot who is paying attention can make this error in good visibility.
To begin with, please consider Eric's post on the KLM incident:
Originally posted by Eric Diffoot
Keys to figuring out if you're taking off on Taxiway Bravo vs Runway 36 at Amsterdam Schiphol International Airport at night
1) The surface you're taking off of is grey, runways are paved black.
2) The surface you're taking off of seems not as wide as a runway.
3) The surface you're taking off of doesn't seem to have any touchdown zone/aiming point markings.
4) The surface you're taking off of seems to have a solid yellow centerline (green lights) and blue lights lining the edges instead of a dashed white line (white lights) and white lights lining the edges.
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