Malaysia T7 down!!

[TheKiecker]

So, my question would be: exactly what kind of super-binoculars were these rebels using and why did it not help them see two contrails instead of four?

Please, enough of this cocked-up theory.

Evan , please google, " false flag" .

[retox]

So, my question would be: exactly what kind of super-binoculars were these rebels using and why did it not help them see two contrails instead of four?

Please, enough of this cocked-up theory.

I was clearly stating that it is highly improbable and went into great detail (my 2 posts that followed ) why I believe they were unable to make visual on MH17. Other well respected posters here have very recently mentioned that the rebels WOULD have been able to determine the type of AC and I just don't agree given the design of the BUK, the weather, the proximity of the launcher to the AC, and other factors.

Unfortunately this IS being reported on Russian state media which enjoys a 60% credibility rating on Ukraine issues. 94% of Russians get their news from TV while only 9% check and believe other sources (internet). Outside of Russia there are many media outlets sympathetic to Putin or flat-out anti-US.

We live in a world where media is controlled and propaganda is used, to some extent, against citizens of every country.

Discussing this "cocked-up theory" along with who believes it and why followed by a thorough discussion of why it is not possible (in a civil manner), I believe, gets us all closer to to truth.

[Evan]

Evan , please google, " false flag" .

Why? We know it was shot down. We know those who shot it down could not see the livery at the time of launch. We know (or at least US intel knows) the point of launch and the trajectory of the missile. We know it was launched from rebel-held territory. The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point.

A good place to start is the intercepted communications and the seized missile launcher.

A bad place to start is on the Russian version of Fox News.

[AVION1]

Ukranian airspace was closed to traffic that day.
Why this airplane was flying in there?
================================
Prior to the crash, the airspace in the Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region (FIR) had been closed from ground level to 32,000 feet

http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-checklist/82659.html?hq_e=el&hq_m=2916921&hq_l=13&hq_v=fb7ccdc9ab#.U8rqxvldX9U

[KGEG]

^Which was below the reported flight level of the downed flight.



WHY? They shot it down because they wanted to shoot down anything they thought would attack them or belonged to the enemy.


The enemy? Anyone who was not part of their group or the people they called friends.

This automatically paints a target on anything they know is not a friendly in their eyes. Thats when it goes to, okay this COULD be a plane belonging to the enemy, or it PROBABLY is, we'd better shoot it down. Or screw it, if it isn't we will seek asylum in Russia or hope someone else somehow gets blamed. If it was intentional "Now this the the opportunity we have been waiting for".


I wouldn't put any of the possibilities past the militants we are talking about.

[Peter Kesternich]

Ukranian airspace was closed to traffic that day.
Why this airplane was flying in there?
================================
Prior to the crash, the airspace in the Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region (FIR) had been closed from ground level to 32,000 feet

http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-che...b#.U8rqxvldX9U

MH17 was travelling at FL330 so it was in open air space.

[Peter Kesternich]

(...) The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point. (...)

I believe the question of "why?" is pretty easy to answer: It was a mistake (as was the case in almost all instances when a civilian airliner was shot down). Neither of the parties involved in the conflict in eastern Ukraine has a motive to shoot down a neutral civilian airliner.

The question of "who?" will be more difficult to answer. Since it was a mistake (as I assume), nobody will be willing to admit to it, but point the finger at the other parties involved and trying to blame them. All the facts so far seem to implicate the pro-Russian separatists, but it will be difficult to identify the guy personally responsible and even harder to hold him accountable. The way I see it, this is not a case for The Hague.

[Peter Kesternich]

You think just because other people are doing foolish things, that it is okay. That's quite childish and irresponsible.

So you think it's okay to smoke crack, just because other people are doing it? (Rhetorical question/analogy)

(...)

Smoking crack is illegal. The crew of MH17 wasn't doing anything illegal. They were doing something that their flight dispatcher - in common with numerous others on that day - had deemed safe, something that neither their company (like so many others) nor theirs or any other government (including the US, the Ukrainian or the Russian) had warned about.

[TheKiecker]

Why? We know it was shot down. We know those who shot is down could not see the livery at the time of launch. We know (or at least US intel knows) the point of launch and the trajectory of the missile. We know it was launched from rebel-held territory. The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point.

A good place to start is the intercepted communications and the seized missile launcher.

A bad place to start is on the Russian version of Fox News.

You are missing the point. Hundreds of people have been killed in Gaza the past week by Israel, if you want to point fingers at which Russian faction shot down a plane full of Muslims go right ahead. You aren't seeing the world stage here. You really are a bright guy and I enjoy your posting skills, but turn on the TV. Half of Europe is protesting the killings in Gaza. The other half are debating which Flavor shot down a jetliner. Jet crashes distract from mass murder. Tune in.

[Gabriel]

You are missing the point. Hundreds of people have been killed in Gaza the past week by Israel, if you want to point fingers at which Russian faction shot down a plane full of Muslims go right ahead. You aren't seeing the world stage here. You really are a bright guy and I enjoy your posting skills, but turn on the TV. Half of Europe is protesting the killings in Gaza. The other half are debating which Flavor shot down a jetliner. Jet crashes distract from mass murder. Tune in.

Am I drunk or are you implying that someone might have shot down a civilian airliner with the intention to deviate the attention away from the Israel- Gaza conflict?

[retox]

Why? We know it was shot down. We know thse who shot is down could not see the livery at the time of launch. We know (or at least US intel knows) the point of launch and the trajectory of the missile. We know it was launched from rebel-held territory. The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point.

A good place to start is the intercepted communications and the seized missile launcher.

A bad place to start is on the Russian version of Fox News.

Russian state TV (I assume that is what you refer to) is an excellent place to start. If 2 people tell me a conflicting story, it may be impossible to prove one true. It is often easier to find holes in the lie.

If the Putin version can be picked apart and determined improbable (really seems to be the case) you have credible evidence that what the "other" side is saying is probably true. The innocent usually don't need to twist the facts.

There remains a huge question regarding the decision by Ukraine officials to keep the airspace open above FL320. They 100% KNEW it was not safe (see text below). Would Ukraine not benefit tremendously if the rebels took down a commercial AC? Perhaps their officials considered this and they got their wish. Scoff at that if you will but this is a non-linear war. Welcome to 2014. I'm not going to go as far as some have and suggest they "staged" it (I do NOT believe that) but I do believe Ukraine will extract the value of this crisis to their benefit and that their inaction (conscious or not) allowed this to happen.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

The basic for those without access to wsj: "KIEV—Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess of where the Boeing 777 was flying.The disclosure deepens the mystery of why Ukrainian aviation officials failed to..."

[TheKiecker]

Am I drunk or are you implying that someone might have shot down a civilian airliner with the intention to deviate the attention away from the Israel- Gaza conflict?

I think there is no implying about it.

I think you are drunk if you think this was an " accident"

[Gabriel]

I think there is no implying about it.

I think you are drunk if you think this was an " accident"

I am somewhere between "accident" and "murder".

Like seeing someone walking in she shadow and shoot at him just in case he might be a crook. Oops, no, it was the newsboy.

But from there to say that the intention was to shot down an airplane knowing that it was a civilian airplane, and even more doing so to distract the attention from the middle-East conflict... I think I am not the drunk one. And drunk would be a too benign word in this context.

[TheKiecker]

Gabriel,

You can paint it any way you want. If you dont think there is suspicion around the world as to this sequence of events, I cant help you.

TK

EDIT: And if it frosts your nuts that Israel/CIA/US would be questioned, you might want to take it elsewhere.

[retox]

Before you say it, I know, tl;dr but it seemed relevant.

Ray McGovern – a 27-year CIA veteran, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates and personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their vice presidents, secretaries of state, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials – provides vital details*on an accidental shootdown by Russia – and America’s disinformation campaign to make it look intentional – 3 decades ago:

"The U.S. press might pause to recall how it’s been manipulated by the U.S. government in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the KAL-007 tragedy.*In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a*Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after it strayed hundreds of miles off course andpenetrated some of the Soviet Union’s most sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.*Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots*did not respond to*the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity —*a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier*— Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board.*The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake.*U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder*….*But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn’t good enough for the Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate tensions with Moscow.*Falsifying the Case*To make the very blackest case against Moscow,the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.”*Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.”*“The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book,*Warriors of Disinformation.*USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled.Snyder noted that*“the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’”*On Sept. 6, 1983,*the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council(a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).*“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”*But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote.*Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.*The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according to the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions of Soviet ground controllers,*the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to force the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. “This comment was also not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.*It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the means of falsifying the historical record.*In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from the incident. The senior USIA official wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.”"