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  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Sure, certainly even a well-trained crew can make an error under extreme pressure. I don't see this as having anything to do with extreme pressure though. I see this as a gang of trigger-happy plane-hunting enthusiasts out for sport.
    Evan, I recognize and acknowledge the differences between the Iranian Air case and the Malaysian Case. But:

    - Don't say "an" error. There were many, a lot of errors.

    - Climbing vs diving.
    - The plane had departed its assigned departure airport and was flying straight along and well inside its assigned civil airway (civilian airspace corridor).
    - The plane was squawking a valid Mode III civilian transponder code, not the Mode II that somehow the Vincennes crew thought.
    - All the three things above were clearly and correctly displayed by the AEGIS system, and was recorded by said system so there is no doubt about that.
    - They made warning calls in military frequencies and the civil emergency frequency (121.5). They didn't try the ATC frequency of the zone, and in the emergency civil frequency (that the airplane wasn't necessarily monitoring) they gave no clear information that would have helped the crew, if they were listening, to recognize that they were calling them. In fact, against the usual practice, they gave the groundspeed instead of the estimated airspeed.
    - When they consulted the commercial flight schedules, they didn't take into account the different time zones.

    - "Trigger-happiness" seems to be an important factor in the Vincinnes case too.

    - A helicopter from the USS Vincennes received small arms fire from Iranian patrol vessels as it observed from high altitude (the Iranian claim than both the vessels and the helicopter were in Iranian waters, the USA claims that they were on international waters).
    - Seeking a sort of "revange" (since it was not in danger), the Vincennes ilegally moved into Iranian waters to engage the Iranian vessels (remember that USA and Iran were not in war, and one would argue that the Iranian vessels have all the right to be in their own waters). So what was the need to engage these vessels? Maybe trigger-happiness?
    - So they make all the mistakes mentioned above and think that they were attacked by an Iranian F-14. Which was no only not in an attack maneuver, but hadn't even illuminated them with the radar (which is a needed step in the attack process).
    - Not only that, but the Iranian F-14 fleet didn't have the capability for air-surface attack. One would think that the Navy, largest operators of F-14s, should have known the capabilities of the enemy.
    - And let's also remember:
    Craig, Morales & Oliver, in a slide presentation published in M.I.T.'s Spring 2004 Aeronautics & Astronautics as the "USS Vincennes Incident", commented that Captain Rogers had "an undeniable and unequivocal tendency towards what I call 'picking a fight.'" On his own initiative, Rogers moved the Vincennes 50 miles (80 km) northeast to join the USS Montgomery. An angry Captain Richard McKenna, Chief of Surface Warfare for the Commander of the Joint Task Force, ordered Rogers back to Abu Musa, but the Vincennes helicopter pilot, Lt Mark Collier, followed the Iranian speedboats as they retreated north, eventually taking some fire:

    ...the Vincennes jumps back into the fray. Heading towards the majority of the speedboats, he is unable to get a clear target. Also, the speedboats are now just slowly milling about in their own territorial waters. Despite clear information to the contrary, Rogers informs command that the gunboats are gathering speed and showing hostile intent and gains approval to fire upon them at 0939. Finally, in another fateful decision, he crosses the 12-nautical-mile (22 km) limit off the coast and enters illegally into Iranian waters.
    So trigger happy? I'd say yes.

    Ok, not the same trigger-happiness flavor than than the one likely displayed by the revels here (if they indeed sot down the Malaysian airplane). The Vinceness flavor was, what was it called? Oh, yes, 'scenario fulfillment'.

    - There might be factors involved in the Rebels' action too (if that's what happened as it seems).

    - There are reports (I don't know if true or not) that there was an Ukrainian transport in the zone. If that's true, maybe when they say target in the radar they said "there it is".
    - They likely knew that the airspace was closed to civilian flight. Ok, only up to FL320, not 330, but maybe they didn't know or understand that, as the vast majority of the press and forum posters who said "what the hell were they doing flying in a closed airspace, the FAA had banned the zone" and things like that.
    - So maybe they just thought "civilians are not flying here, Russians are not here either because they tell us when they do it, so it must be Ukrainian military". Especially if they knew of an Ukrainian military transport in the zone.

    Bottom line, sure there are several differences between both cases, like, as you mention, that the Vincennes thought they were under attack and the rebels not (but the Vincennes didn't thought that they were under attack when they invaded Iranian waters to engage the Iranian vessels).

    But, if under one specific set of circumstances, the US navy made this gross and negligent mistake, I don't see why, under a different set of circumstances, the rebels can't make a similar gross and negligent mistake too.

    Sorry, I didn't want to get into this. Let's make a deal: You stop minimizing and defending the US navy for their shooting down of Iranian Air and I stop acting like the Iranian lawyer, which you have no idea how far it is from what I want to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
    I have never seen a "tourist map" indicating terrain elevation (brown color for mountains) and green
    As usual from you an argument. Does it look anything like this at all? No I think not!

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
    Looks like an aeronautical chart (VFR), the one to the left:
    ~300 people...

    The odds that someone is a private pilot is...

    And that they might have a map for grins, or planning to take a flight, or took a flight...

    And let me side with BB- while the resolution is bad, I'm not seeing stuff that looks like navaids, airways nor airspace restrictions.

    Or does the map have markings to where the other MH plane is?

    Leave a comment:


  • AVION1
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Looks like a tourist map to me, definitely not an aeronautical chart.
    I have never seen a "tourist map" indicating terrain elevation (brown color for mountains) and green

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
    Looks like an aeronautical chart (VFR), the one to the left:


    Looks like a tourist map to me, definitely not an aeronautical chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • EconomyClass
    replied
    I'd hate to think John Kerry is as polished at giving misinformation as Colin Powell was at the UN. But I think the true nature of this incident could remain controversial for a long time. I just read a timeline. This was about the fifth or sixth plane shot down, including a civilian airline, in recent weeks. What is it with Malaysian Airlines that they don't adapt to circumstances? The Wikipedia article even says Russia closed some air routes. Isn't that kind of a bit of a tipoff? My local newspaper didn't run big stories on the previous crashes caused by military action.

    Leave a comment:


  • AVION1
    replied
    Looks like an aeronautical chart (VFR), the one to the left:

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    We know for certain that the separatists have a proficiency that they’ve gained by training from Russians as to how to use these sophisticated SA-11 systems,” Mr. Kerry said on the CNN program “State of the Union.” “We know they have the system.”
    That's coming straight from the mouth of the US Secretary of State.

    We know they had "a proficiency" for firing missiles. We don't know that they had any proficiency for friend or foe (IFF) target designation, command and control or military discipline. In short, it appears now that Russia supplied an unstable rebel militia with the means to shoot down passenger jets.

    And then guess what happened???

    Leave a comment:


  • retox
    replied
    A quick diversion to a wild plan that could have put civilian 747's at risk of ending up like MH17.

    After the Carter Administration's cancellation of the B-1A program due to fiscal concerns, the rise of air-launched cruise missiles and the possibility of developing a stealth bomber, Boeing put forward a low-risk, relatively cheap, cruise missile delivery vehicle alternative based on the mighty 747. It was called the…


    See how I did that? I posted a totally unrelated story without being obvious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jpmkam
    replied
    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    Following the agreement of Chris Kilroy, the site owner, ATFS_crash has been permanently banned.

    Leave a comment:


  • brianw999
    replied
    Following the agreement of Chris Kilroy, the site owner, ATFS_crash has been permanently banned.

    Leave a comment:


  • ultraflight
    replied
    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    News flash for the chief Rag, Tag and Bobtail....... They'll be the boxes that have
    FLIGHT RECORDER. DO NOT OPEN written on them in big, black letters !
    Then:

    Что это значит: "FLIGHT RECORDER. DO NOT OPEN" ???????

    Leave a comment:


  • Jpmkam
    replied
    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    News flash for the chief Rag, Tag and Bobtail....... They'll be the boxes that have
    FLIGHT RECORDER. DO NOT OPEN written on them in big, black letters !

    Leave a comment:


  • brianw999
    replied
    There are no specialists among us who could pinpoint the look of the black boxes, but we brought to Donetsk some technical items which could be the black boxes of the airliner.
    News flash for the chief Rag, Tag and Bobtail....... They'll be the boxes that have
    FLIGHT RECORDER. DO NOT OPEN written on them in big, black letters !

    Leave a comment:


  • ultraflight
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post


    Brian, a terrible tragedy has unfolded here, 298 lives lost and some of us wish to try and make sense of it on this forum. Unfortunately the forum has quickly been trolled and hijacked into a forum for people who find entertainment value in tragedies like this and amuse themselves with conspiracy theories and combative insults. ATFS_Crash is easily the worst example of this and the only reason I can imagine that he is still here is that his family must own the site.

    Nobody who matters here believes you are a racist or even cares. I understand that you are being publically defamed and want to publically respond but PLEASE NOT HERE. Please take this somewhere else and please delete every post where ATFS_Crash has used that defamatory signature and PLEASE DELETE EVERY POST THAT IS NOT ON TOPIC. Including this one.

    That's just basic moderation. Sorry, but it has to be said.
    Hear Hear !!!!!

    Leave a comment:

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