Malaysia T7 down!!

[Jpmkam]

Black boxes.

Pro-Russian rebels today said they have recovered the black boxes from MH17 and taken them to Donetsk where they will be handed over to international investigators.

Rebel leader Aleksander Borodai told a press conference in Donetsk: 'Some items, presumably the black boxes, were found, and they have been delivered to Donetsk and they are under our control. There are no specialists among us who could pinpoint the look of the black boxes, but we brought to Donetsk some technical items which could be the black boxes of the airliner.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3828qF912
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[Evan]

Biran,
I don't want to enter again in the blame game for the Iranian Air case, just meaning that if the US Navy can make that by mistake in 1988 with what was then their most advanced system, certainly some rebels can make the same mistake with a Russian equipment from the 70's.

Sure, certainlly even a well-trained crew can make an error under extreme pressure. I don't see this as having anything to do with extreme pressure though. I see this as a gang of trigger-happy plane-hunting enthusiasts out for sport. I find it hard to believe that a trained Russian crew could have made this mistake and for this reason I suspect it wasn't manned by a trained Russian crew, but, as you say, there is that US precedent for such error.

You can't bring the VIncennes into this, however, without acknowledging the very different circumstances. The Vincennes crew was in enemy waters, taking and directing fire in a very small, very dangerous corridor in the presence of hostile F-14's and Exocets. They wrongly perceived that the target was diving at them and, with only seconds to act in defense, the rest is a classic case of fear-driven confirmatiuon bias. There's no blame game to play there, The Captain of that ship, by taking it on a reckless aggressive attack into Iranian waters, put the ship and everything around it at great risk and is clearly to blame. I see the Vincennes crew as being victims or those circumstances.

Contrast this with the scenario faced by the Ukranian seperatists. They were safely inside their own territory, not under direct attack and targeting a transport aircraft at 33,000ft. Military or not, there is no extreme pressure to kill or be killed there. There is no fear-factor, just hot-headedness and drunken warfare.

While I agree with you that IFF offers no assurance, I think the circumstances that led to the VIncennes error were not at all present in this case.

[Gabriel]

I don't think so. The BUK system has an IFF system that shows that the aircraft BEING TARGETED is/was a civil airliner, not a reported Antonov which it now seems was not being targeted after all. That is how I have been led to believe that the system works.

To repeat that.....as far as I am aware the missile will track to the aircraft that is being targeted ONLY.
There may well have been a Ukrainian Antonov around but it doesn't seem that it was the actual targeted aircraft.

I could of course be wrong and am quite happy to be proven so if required.

Biran,

That IFF is the same system than what the USS Vincennes had when they shot down Iranian Air, which was also transmitting a civilian code, the one assigned by ATC.

I don't want to enter again in the blame game for the Iranian Air case, just meaning that if the US Navy can make that by mistake in 1988 with what was then their most advanced system, certainly some rebels can make the same mistake with a Russian equipment from the 70's.

Contrary to the accounts of various USS Vincennes crewmembers, the Vincennes' shipboard Aegis Combat System recorded that the Iranian airliner was climbing at the time and its radio transmitter was "squawking" on the Mode III civilian code only, rather than on military Mode II.

And the IFF isn't a "smart" system that says "Target: Ukrainian Antonov: Military. Foe. Shoot" or "Malaysian B-777. Civilian. Friend. Don't shoot".

I don't know exactly how it works, but it's something like it will give you the type of code that the plane is squawking and the code number itself, and perhaps compare it with a database that is useless useless you keep it updated in real time, because the codes are assigned individually to each airplane and changed frequently to avoid that the other party uses your codes as a false flag.

Identification, friend or foe (IFF) is an identification system designed for command and control. It enables military and national (civilian air traffic control) interrogation systems to identify aircraft, vehicles or forces as friendly and to determine their bearing and range from the interrogator. IFF may be used by both military and civilian aircraft.

IFF was first developed during World War II. The term is a misnomer, as IFF can only positively identify friendly targets, not hostile ones. If an IFF interrogation receives no reply or an invalid reply, the object cannot be identified as friendly, but is not positively identified as foe. There are many reasons that friendly aircraft may not properly reply to IFF.

[...]

Mode 1 – provides 2-digit octal mission code. (military only – can be changed in flight)
Mode 2 – provides 4-digit octal unit code. (military only – can't be changed in flight)
Mode 3/A – provides a 4-digit octal identification code for the aircraft, assigned by the air traffic controller. (military and civilian)
Mode 4 – provides a 3-pulse reply to crypto coded challenge. (military only)
Mode 5 – provides a cryptographically secured version of Mode S and ADS-B GPS position. (military only)

[And they forgot to include the Mode 3/C and the mode S]

[EconomyClass]

Joined this late. Are surface-to-air missiles available on the munitions black market? Or did someone slip them to the rebels out of their bountiful supply? Russia better hope the Chechens don't find a supplier.

[retox]

Gosh... no need to start whackin att each other here...

Found this:
http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20...-telar-images/

Firstly sir, I assure you, I whack alone.

To the rest...

This conflicts with other reports. It states, "But, Soviet-era air defense systems as the Buk are equipped with IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) systems meaning that they are able to detect if the system is targeting a civilian plane through its transponder code. Therefore, provided the operators are trained enough, they’ll be able to distinguish between a*Ukrainian transport plane*and a large airliner. If not, they will simply shoot."

I have 4 problems with the article
1. Vague blanket statement "Soviet-era systems as the Buk" is not specific to the variant used.
2. Blogger is a self-proclaimed "Freelance journalist & writer."
3. He makes no note that this capability is only enabled through a link to external data (ATC) which would not have been in place here.
3. He cites sources such as You Tube and a reader of this blog ("Phuzz").

I'm certainly not here to impugn or besmerch the good name that is "Phuzz" but, in a conflicting report (MIT) it is stated:

"Pietrucha says that the Buk variant that is likely to have been operated by the rebels might have been especially unable to distinguish between civilian and military air traffic because of a quirk related to aircraft transponders. Military and civilian aircraft often use the same transponder modes and therefore that signal is not used as a “discriminator” for a military targeting system, Pietrucha says. The system has to be tied into the national air traffic control system to use that information effectively."

I must give this version of the story more credibility as it is far more specific regarding the actual weapon used and it is written by what appears to be a more learned source. https://touch.www.linkedin.com/?sess...13%2F562%2F783

He cites Steve Zaloga, an expert on missile systems at the Teal Group, a defense-consulting firm in Virginia and Michael Pietrucha, a former F-4G and F-15E electronic warfare officer and expert on air defenses. Pietrucha says he trained with German forces operating a similar Russian-built system during the 1990s.

Here is the actual article in full: http://www.technologyreview.com/news...ource=facebook

[Jpmkam]

At least of the black boxes reported seen on Reuters video which was filmed 2 days ago. The current whereabouts unknown.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

An estimated 233 bodies have been recovered and stored in refrigerated train cars.

[brianw999]

@Evan.
Thank you...and I have taken this to PM's now although I doubt that Crash will like what I say to him and even less like the fact that no one else can read his response, if there is one. I will continue to delete each and every post that has the offending signature. He possibly doesn't realise that EVERY post that he's ever made (500 of them) has been deleted because each time you make a change to your signature it defaults on to every post made.

@ 3WE.
No problem at all. I completely understand what you are saying. There is a whole mix of problems here. Eurocontrol cleared the aircraft into what was believed to be a safe area. Ukrainian ATC cleared the aircraft further albeit lower than MH17's requested level into what was thought was a safe area. Other airlines used that routing that day and others diverted south and north. Malaysian decided to fly the route that they did and became victims. The weak link in the chain was that no one knew that Rag, Tag and Bobtail were in charge of a weapon that it seems they didn't know how to use or didn't care how they used it.
The resulting tragedy is that 298 people died. Investigators must be allowed in and given full access to all required information, if necessary under armed escort to get the justice that the dead deserve.

[Evan]

And war is so polite we know these soldiers are going to follow those RULES.....

Especially belligerant, untrained, undisciplined militias who no nothing about these RULES and are known to be in possession of a medium-range missile launcher. Nothing to worry about there...

[3WE]

...and it was at that altitude because Ukrainian ATC told it to do so. MH17 had originally requested FL350 if I remember correctly from a previous post.

This talk drives me nuts....Oh, we're at 30-THIS-something feet which is ok because it's 2000-whatever feet above the official ceiling of the war-zone and the good warring people will set their missiles to not violate this altitude...

Peachy keen, let's fly and feel good that, even though there's missiles flying just 2000 feet below, we're ok because there are RULES....

And war is so polite we know these soldiers are going to follow those RULES.....

All this against the backdrop of pilots calling "clear" before taxiing across an INACTIVE runway and telling jump-seating persons they can inform the pilots if they see something wrong so they can optimize safety.

(This is directed 100% at the talk, 0% at Brian- I recognize that there's a technical aspect to this, but dang...you have almost 300 souls on board and you live in a hyper-sensitive safety culture, but no big deal, we'll go flying within 2000 feet of some totally artificial border that's supposed to stop missles zooming at hundreds of miles per hour operated by 18 year olds (let's PRETEND they're TRAINED 18 year [email protected]#%@#!...yeah, that makes it safer......NOT!!!!!!!!!!)

Sorry for the rant- but it BECAUSE you were flying at FL330 or 350 or 370 because someone in an office and NOWHERE NEAR the battle zone writes a rule on a piece of paper provides no REAL protection from much of anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: A clarification- There's two slightly different things...1) Should be be flying here or there?- I am still willing to listen to that decision process. However 2), this talk that it's ok to fly over a war zone because you are at FL 3-something...what's the long Gabriel version of "BULLCRAP!" Just because you are at some flight level over a war zone- I find that extremely poorly defensible...as to whether 50 miles, 100 miles to the side of a war zone, or exactly where is the war zone....

[Evan]

IN THE LIGHT OF THIS I REQUEST THAT YOU DELETE YOUR CURRENT SIGNATURE. IT IS OUT OF CONTEXT FROM THE MEANING OF THE ORIGINAL POSTING, IT IS SLANDEROUS AND/OR LIBELLOUS AND GIVES A FALSE IMPRESSION OF HOW I LIVE MY LIFE. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN ME URGING THE OWNER OF THIS SITE TO BAN YOU FROM THIS SITE PERMANENTLY.

Brian, a terrible tragedy has unfolded here, 298 lives lost and some of us wish to try and make sense of it on this forum. Unfortunately the forum has quickly been trolled and hijacked into a forum for people who find entertainment value in tragedies like this and amuse themselves with conspiracy theories and combative insults. ATFS_Crash is easily the worst example of this and the only reason I can imagine that he is still here is that his family must own the site.

Nobody who matters here believes you are a racist or even cares. I understand that you are being publically defamed and want to publically respond but PLEASE NOT HERE. Please take this somewhere else and please delete every post where ATFS_Crash has used that defamatory signature and PLEASE DELETE EVERY POST THAT IS NOT ON TOPIC. Including this one.

That's just basic moderation. Sorry, but it has to be said.

[brianw999]

Gabriel just aaaaaaabsoulutely destroyed Brian.

Internet message board GOLD.

I don't think so. The BUK system has an IFF system that shows that the aircraft BEING TARGETED is/was a civil airliner, not a reported Antonov which it now seems was not being targeted after all. That is how I have been led to believe that the system works.

To repeat that.....as far as I am aware the missile will track to the aircraft that is being targeted ONLY.
There may well have been a Ukrainian Antonov around but it doesn't seem that it was the actual targeted aircraft.

I could of course be wrong and am quite happy to be proven so if required.

Edit: talking about internet put downs....

Quoting Gabriel.....

Originally Posted by TheKiecker
Gabriel,

You can paint it any way you want. If you dont think there is suspicion around the world as to this sequence of events, I cant help you.

TK

EDIT: And if it frosts your nuts that Israel/CIA/US would be questioned, you might want to take it elsewhere.

Gabriel answered..
The idea that it was a false flag operation by a party not involved in the conflict to deviate the attention away their own, unrelated conflict for a few days is something hard to believe, especially when there is absolutely no slightest evidence, hint or cue of that. Or have any to offer?

Or are you Northwester? Or starchyme?

Oh, and it doesn't matter if it's Israel to downplay Gaza or Iran to downplay its civil war, or Brazil to downplay its 1-7 loss against Germany. It makes the same amount of sense: none.

Quoting Peter Kesternich...
Gabriel, we shouldn't waste any energy on replying to posts from TheKiecker or ATFS_Crash. If they want to spin their conspiracy theories here or further their backwards, US-centric, xenophobic ideas, they should go to a different forum but not be rewarded with any time or effort on our part.

And another from Boeing Bobby...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKiecker
Gabriel,

You can paint it any way you want. If you dont think there is suspicion around the world as to this sequence of events, I cant help you.

TK

EDIT: And if it frosts your nuts that Israel/CIA/US would be questioned, you might want to take it elsewhere.

You sir are a certifiable idiot making statements like this!

[brianw999]

Gosh... no need to start whacking at each other here...

Found this:
http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20...-telar-images/

(Make sure to switch off the sound when playing the video)

Good find Ultraflight.

This part of the text says it all really.....

But, Soviet-era air defense systems as the Buk are equipped with IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) systems meaning that they are able to detect if the system is targeting a civilian plane through its transponder code. Therefore, provided the operators are trained enough, they’ll be able to distinguish between a Ukrainian transport plane and a large airliner. If not, they will simply shoot.

The Ukrainians would have been sufficiently well trained to recognise the IFF as would the Russians, neither of whom had anything to gain by, and an awful lot to lose in shooting down a civil aircraft.....
Which leaves the rag, tag and bobtail untrained separatists as the only other option. I can just imagine the conversation before the launcher was seen disappearing back to Russia.
Putin to his commanders....: "For Gods sake take that thing away from those idiots before they shoot one of ours down".

However...... If as has been hinted at elsewhere here, the separatists had been given some training by the Russians then that opens up a whole new can of responsibility worms.

[ultraflight]

Gosh... no need to start whacking at each other here...

Found this:
http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20...-telar-images/

(Make sure to switch off the sound when playing the video)

[brianw999]

Sorry for the capital letter shouting that follows but this post needs to be seen.

THIS IS THE FULL TEXT OF THE POST THAT ATFSCRASH TOOK HIS CURRENT SIGNATURE FROM. IT REFERS TO A CONVERSATION OVERHEARD BETWEEN TWO BLACK PERSONS.
IT SHOWS HOW ATFSCRASH HAS TAKEN MY WORDS COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT AND TWISTED THEM TO SUIT HIS OWN AGENDA IN THAT IT APPARENTLY SHOWS ME UP AS BEING RACIST WHEN THIS IS NOT TRUE.....

Crash,

Taking Paul on in a literary war of words is a battle you are sure to lose.

Oh yes, by the way, "Niger" is a river in Africa. I believe the word you were looking for is "nigger" ?

A long time ago in a job before the one I have now, I and some friends were howling with laughter when we heard the following said to a black work colleague. "You no-good black enamel nigger bastard, you are useless. F**k off"

Why were we howling with laughter ? Because the bloke saying it was so black he farted soot !

Was HE being rascist ?

I have one piece of advice for you to take forward into your early adulthood.
For God's sake stick to an anonymous computer with your ranting....because one day, if you say it out loud in public, you are sure to wind up with a smoking hole in you.

CRASH, YOU HAVE TAKEN MY WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT, YOU HAVE MADE THEM TO SHOW ME UP AS A RACIST WHICH I AM NOT. IF WE LIVED IN THE SAME COUNTRY I WOULD BE INSTRUCTING MY LAWYERS RIGHT NOW BUT WE DONT.
I AM, HOWEVER A MODERATOR HERE. UNTIL SUCH TIME AS YOU TAKE DOWN YOUR SIGNATURE, WHICH IS RACIST IN THE EXTREME AS IT IS WRITTEN, EACH AND EVERY POST THAT SHOWS THAT SIGNATURE WILL BE TAKEN DOWN. ANY FURTHER PERSONAL ATTACKS ON ANYONE USING THIS SITE, NOT JUST ME, WILL ALSO BE TAKEN DOWN. THIS DOES NOT PREVENT YOU FROM POSTING BUT IF THE POST CONTAINS THE CURRENT SIGNATURE OR ANYTHING ELSE LIKE IT, IT WILL BE TAKEN DOWN.

[brianw999]

MH17 was travelling at FL330 so it was in open air space.

...and it was at that altitude because Ukrainian ATC told it to do so. MH17 had originally requested FL350 if I remember correctly from a previous post.