Malaysia T7 down!!

[brianw999]

@ ATFSCrash.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw999
I and some friends were howling with laughter when we heard the following said to a black work colleague. "You no-good black enamel nigger bastard, you are useless. F**k off"

Yet another case of you using someone else's words and twisting the context to suit yourself.
We were howling with laughter AT THE SOURCE OF THAT STATEMENT because those words were said BY A BLACK PERSON TO A BLACK PERSON. We were specifically NOT laughing at what was being said because we considered it to be racist. To enforce the point....we were laughing at the irony of the situation, we were laughing at the fact that if it had been said by a white person to a black person then there would be a shitstorm of racism accusations.....and rightly so.

Get it right Crashypoos, get it right.

IN THE LIGHT OF THIS I REQUEST THAT YOU DELETE YOUR CURRENT SIGNATURE. IT IS OUT OF CONTEXT FROM THE MEANING OF THE ORIGINAL POSTING, IT IS SLANDEROUS AND/OR LIBELLOUS AND GIVES A FALSE IMPRESSION OF HOW I LIVE MY LIFE. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN ME URGING THE OWNER OF THIS SITE TO BAN YOU FROM THIS SITE PERMANENTLY.

[Black Ram]

There is no truth, only versions of it. Reagan believed what he did with KAL007 was "truth" and I feel a little "okay" being lied to as his end justified the means.

It's taking advantage of the situation, and adding a political spin on it, but not exactly lying. Lying would be to deny you fired the missile that downed the plane, which the Soviets were doing, and I think the released intercepts made them admit, at least at the time they did admit.

Lying would be risking the lives of hundreds of civilians by installing spy equipment on their passenger jet, and deliberately sending it off-course, into protected Soviet airspace for a spy mission, and counting no one would dare shoot down what seems like a regular passenger flight. This is the theory many supporters of Russian politics are spreading until today.

I know from the ACI/Mayday episode that the pilot who downed the plane is still thinking he was shooting at a spy plane, and not a passenger plane. He looked honest and sincere in the interview, and also in denial, which is what one would expect.

[Highkeas]

I would expect that there are residents of East Ukraine that were members of either the Ukraine military or the USSR military and who were familiar with the SA-11 missile system - after all that system was developed in the 1970s as I recall with subsequent updates.

[retox]

Interesting, but I don't understand the connection to this incident.

Well since you made me think about it...

There is no truth, only versions of it. Reagan believed what he did with KAL007 was "truth" and I feel a little "okay" being lied to as his end justified the means.

Putin believes his version is "truth" and so many are okay with it. Ukraine, the rebels, Obama, they all believe and have followers.

We will never know if Ukraine left the airspace above FL320 open with the expectation that this would happen (given the amount of traffic in their airspace how could they not). They had the choice to announce to the world that their airspace is closed due to the threat which makes Putin look a little bad OR they could wait for a probable disaster which would really forward their cause. They admitted they knew about the BUK for at least 3 days.

We will also never know if the US knew about this game-changing capability (was it shared by Ukraine or hidden from us). At some level we are certainly communicating with them on a daily basis and one would think they would say, "hey, about all those commercial flights in our airspace". Did our vast network of knowing and seeing everything fail us? If not, who got or did not get the information? If we knew why did we not act and warn air traffic? We don't exactly seem reluctant to interfere with the airlines on the slightest threat. Do we not gain from this tragedy as well?

We know that politics are about manipulation and power over people. We know politicians can't waste a good tragedy. We know we are being lied to "for our own good".

I can accept being lied to about deaths that we did not cause. I hate feeling as if we may have been, on some level, complicit but I do take odd comfort in the fact that there is probably just a hell of a lot of incompetence and inefficient bureaucracy involved.

[BoeingBobby]

Gabriel,

You can paint it any way you want. If you dont think there is suspicion around the world as to this sequence of events, I cant help you.

TK

EDIT: And if it frosts your nuts that Israel/CIA/US would be questioned, you might want to take it elsewhere.

You sir are a certifiable idiot making statements like this!

[retox]

I don't even want to think about this scenario.

Very interesting article pointing out the necessity of trained personnel to operate this analogue, radar guided, cold war technology. Either Russians or trained Ukrainian seperatists.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/...719-story.html

Trained personnel? Check.

Wonder how they came across a trained crew? A real mind-smoker eh.

Source- Forbes

"Talks between terrorists,*July 17,*2014
Khmuryi: Sergei Nikolaevich Petrovskiy, officer of*Main Intelligence Directorate*of Russian Federation,*Deputy Chief*of Igor Girkin on*Intelligence; at the time of the interception he was in Donetsk.
“Buryat” – militant of rebel group “DNR,” or Donetsk People’s Republic (to be identified).
Buryat: – Where should we load*this beauty, Nikolaievich?
Khmuryi: Which one? This one?
B: Yes, the one I’ve brought. I’m already in Donetsk.
K: Is it the one I’m thinking about? “B…,”M” one?
B: Yes, yes, yes. “BUK”,”BUK”.
K: Is it on a*tractor?
B: Yes, it’s on it. We need to unload it somewhere, in order to hide.
K: Is it with a*crew?
B: Yes, with the crew.
K: Don’t hide it anywhere. She’ll go there now."

[Peter Kesternich]

Gabriel, we shouldn't waste any energy on replying to posts from TheKiecker or ATFS_Crash. If they want to spin their conspiracy theories here or further their backwards, US-centric, xenophobic ideas, they should go to a different forum but not be rewarded with any time or effort on our part.

[Evan]

The SA-11 missile is an explosive warhead armed with a "proximity fuse" that detonates within 110 yards of a target. This means, O’Reilly said, that Flight 17 was downed by the force of the blast, not by a direct collision with the missile.

I don't even want to think about this scenario.

Very interesting article pointing out the necessity of trained personnel to operate this analogue, radar guided, cold war technology. Either Russians or trained Ukrainian seperatists.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/...719-story.html

[Gabriel]

Gabriel,

You can paint it any way you want. If you dont think there is suspicion around the world as to this sequence of events, I cant help you.

TK

EDIT: And if it frosts your nuts that Israel/CIA/US would be questioned, you might want to take it elsewhere.

The idea that it was a false flag operation by a party not involved in the conflict to deviate the attention away their own, unrelated conflict for a few days is something hard to believe, especially when there is absolutely no slightest evidence, hint or cue of that. Or have any to offer?

Or are you Northwester? Or starchyme?

Oh, and it doesn't matter if it's Israel to downplay Gaza or Iran to downplay its civil war, or Brazil to downplay its 1-7 loss against Germany. It makes the same amount of sense: none.

[Evan]

s

I think I am not the drunk one. And drunk would be a too benign word in this context.

Imagine you are powerless, obviously insignificant and marginally educated at best, envious of those who enjoy a better standard of living. And then someone give you artillery rockets or, better yet, a Soviet Buk AA launcher. To the belligerant mind there is a drunkenness that comes from destructive power. You down a transport. Yeeehaw! Ok, not very chivalrous but you never knew anything about that. You are a simpleton, a grown child really. You haven't a shred of dignity so the concept is lost on you. You are the type of guy that kills things without compunction and feels proud simply for being a predator. You are what we all would be if not for the miracle of civilization: a biped animal.

You shoot down another transport. Yes, it's a turkeyshoot, there's no combat involved, these are not challenging targets, but then you abhor a challenge. Like all destructive imbeciles, you crave the soft targets. Oh, yeah, that powerful stuff, it's like crack.

Oh, look, another soft target! Let's blow it up! Give us another honk off the crack pipe!

You are a moron in the context of 21st century society, where great minds, men far better than you, have designed fly-by-wire aircraft that convey millions or people across the world in absolute safety every day. And you know you are an imbecile but now you have destructive power, thanks to your belligerant neighbors across the border. Now you are finally somebody. A drunken, belligerant idiot with a big AA rig looking for a fight, looking for vengeance because you equate that with some sort of satisfaction.

I think, in time, we will see that this was a case of drunkenness, so to speak, and we will have to blame the bartender.

[James Bond]

Gabriel,

You can paint it any way you want. If you dont think there is suspicion around the world as to this sequence of events, I cant help you.

TK

EDIT: And if it frosts your nuts that Israel/CIA/US would be questioned, you might want to take it elsewhere.

Except that Israel has done much worse in the past without the need for any distraction or approval. The ground offensive has been coming for weeks and was the logical next move.

Adding to this, Russia isn't stupid and they would have figured this out by now.

[Jpmkam]

Before you say it, I know, tl;dr but it seemed relevant.

Ray McGovern – a 27-year CIA veteran, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates and personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their vice presidents, secretaries of state, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials – provides vital details*on an accidental shootdown by Russia – and America’s disinformation campaign to make it look intentional – 3 decades ago:

"The U.S. press might pause to recall how it’s been manipulated by the U.S. government in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the KAL-007 tragedy.*In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a*Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after it strayed hundreds of miles off course andpenetrated some of the Soviet Union’s most sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.*Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots*did not respond to*the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity —*a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier*— Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board.*The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake.*U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder*….*But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn’t good enough for the Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate tensions with Moscow.*Falsifying the Case*To make the very blackest case against Moscow,the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.”*Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.”*“The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book,*Warriors of Disinformation.*USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled.Snyder noted that*“the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’”*On Sept. 6, 1983,*the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council(a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).*“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”*But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote.*Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.*The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according to the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions of Soviet ground controllers,*the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to force the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. “This comment was also not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.*It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the means of falsifying the historical record.*In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from the incident. The senior USIA official wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.”"

Interesting, but I don't understand the connection to this incident.

[retox]

Before you say it, I know, tl;dr but it seemed relevant.

Ray McGovern – a 27-year CIA veteran, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates and personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their vice presidents, secretaries of state, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials – provides vital details*on an accidental shootdown by Russia – and America’s disinformation campaign to make it look intentional – 3 decades ago:

"The U.S. press might pause to recall how it’s been manipulated by the U.S. government in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the KAL-007 tragedy.*In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a*Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after it strayed hundreds of miles off course andpenetrated some of the Soviet Union’s most sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.*Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots*did not respond to*the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity —*a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier*— Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board.*The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake.*U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder*….*But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn’t good enough for the Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate tensions with Moscow.*Falsifying the Case*To make the very blackest case against Moscow,the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.”*Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.”*“The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book,*Warriors of Disinformation.*USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled.Snyder noted that*“the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’”*On Sept. 6, 1983,*the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council(a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).*“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”*But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote.*Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.*The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according to the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions of Soviet ground controllers,*the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to force the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. “This comment was also not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.*It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the means of falsifying the historical record.*In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from the incident. The senior USIA official wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.”"

[TheKiecker]

Gabriel,

You can paint it any way you want. If you dont think there is suspicion around the world as to this sequence of events, I cant help you.

TK

EDIT: And if it frosts your nuts that Israel/CIA/US would be questioned, you might want to take it elsewhere.

[Gabriel]

I think there is no implying about it.

I think you are drunk if you think this was an " accident"

I am somewhere between "accident" and "murder".

Like seeing someone walking in she shadow and shoot at him just in case he might be a crook. Oops, no, it was the newsboy.

But from there to say that the intention was to shot down an airplane knowing that it was a civilian airplane, and even more doing so to distract the attention from the middle-East conflict... I think I am not the drunk one. And drunk would be a too benign word in this context.