Malaysia T7 down!!

[3WE]

Are none of you interested in placing any blame at the main party responsible for this tragedy, the people or persons who fired an advanced radar controlled anti-aircraft missile at a civilian airliner?...

Yes...

...but on the other hand, given all the extreme lengths you guys normally go to to ensure a safe flight (do domestic Delta airline pilots REALLY have to brief EVERY SINGLE TIME what they'll do if an engine fails right after takeoff at Atlanta- I'm guessing after the 300th time, it's pretty well ingrained).

But hey, let's go fly over a war zone and because we're at FL330, everything's hunky dory???

Heck, there really isn't any need to check the rudder on the walk around either- it's so high up, you're not likely to see anything amiss.

[BoeingBobby]

Yes...

...but on the other hand, given all the extreme lengths you guys go to to ensure a safe flight (do domestic Delta airline pilots REALLY have to brief EVERY SINGLE TIME what they'll do if an engine fails right after takeoff at Atlanta- I'm guessing after the 300th time, it's pretty well ingrained).

You are not always (very seldom in fact) with the same crew, so a brief is not only required, but a good idea to keep everyone on the same page.

But hey, let's go fly over a war zone and because we're at FL330, everything's hunky dory???

The airway was considered safe enough to keep open by Euro Control and was used by many other aircraft that day.

Heck, there really isn't any need to check the rudder on the walk around either- it's so high up, you're not likely to see anything amiss.

No need to respond to the last one at all!

[retox]

Excellent piece on why the Russians believe the propaganda.

"Even with the understanding that most Russian television stations are controlled by the Kremlin, it can be difficult to fathom the type of media landscape described by articles like Ioffe’s. In the United States, conspiracy theories typically run in opposition to the mainstream message (such as, the Twin Towers were*destroyed by bombs, not planes). *In Russia, it seems, the most extreme conspiracy theories about MH17 don’t contradict the party line as much as they embellish the state-sanctioned message that Russia is either innocent or an intended victim...

When asked why more Russians don’t have or seek access to counter-narratives, Susan Vdovichenko, a professor of Russian language, literature and culture at Washington & Jefferson College, said government brainwashing is only part of the story.“People believe the Russian spin in one sense because there isn’t any counter to it, but in another sense it’s because they want to believe that we’re back in an era of superpowers and Russia is one of those superpowers,”

http://m.ibtimes.com/mh17-russian-media-why-kremlins-propaganda-machine-so-effective-1634864

[ATLcrew]

retox, Are you trying to imply that Malaysian Airlines is complacent in this in any way?

You mean "complicit"? Although, dispatching that airplane anywhere near that area has a tinge of complacency as well...

[BoeingBobby]

You mean "complicit"? Although, dispatching that airplane anywhere near that area has a tinge of complacency as well...

Right you are, damn auto-correct!

[Black Ram]

I think the black boxes are not going to show much in this case. We know almost for certain it was shot down, and there are already reports some of the debris has telltale signs of a missile strike.
There is some chance the boxes might show something else happened to the plane (whether tampered with or not), but we are expecting evidence for a sudden catastrophic failure. The boxes can't show who is responsible for firing the missile, and the claims and counterclaims will continue.

[mfeldt]

Well there are dozens of conspiracy theories, among them that MH17 was ordered by ATC to alter heading and/or altitude....

If such a thing happened, it should be on the voice recorder, or?
I think it would also be quite helpful if ukrainian ATC immediately released transcripts of all conversation with MH17. Isn't that normal procedure anyway?

Also, what about local weather at the time? Questions are being asked as to why that particular was chosen, and kind of handwaving answers mention thunderstorms - it would be nice to have it nailed down a little more precisely.

Last not least, what about radar recordings? So far, only the Russians have shown some - does that mean ATC does not have any?

Just accusing militiaman to hamper investigations does not imply that *nothing* can be done!

[Evan]

Hopefully this time, out of respect for the pilots' families, they won't make the CVR public.

[mfeldt]

Hopefully this time, out of respect for the pilots' families, they won't make the CVR public.

What's so different this time with respect to the pilot's families? At least pilot error is out of the question here...

If things went on as, let' say, mainstream-suspicion has it, there would be little on it but silence.

[MCM]

mfeldt,

Some of us believe the CVR audio should NEVER be released. I, for one, am a very strong advocate for that position. It is not for the prying ears of the curious public - it is an important tool for investigators. Pilots place a lot of faith in the investigation process preserving their privacy when it is not relevant.

As you suggest, it is highly unlikely the CVR is going to show anything but silence. If so, who's possible business is the last conversation of these pilots?

IF the contents of the CVR are relevant to the investigation, then an appropriately redacted transcript should be made available. But that is only if. A statement such as "there was general conversation, and then silence" will likely be more than sufficient.

[mfeldt]

Well, certainly that would do the job. I was asking for nothing more.

What I do not understand is why so much other evidence, that should be readily available, is not being brought forward.

Earlier phases of the flight wouldn't be on the CVR anyway, so just to simply explain earlier changes of heading and silence a whole bunch of conspiracy theories it should be easy to release some transcripts of ATC communication. Or the flight plan. Or... whatever.

[3WE]

Context: Pilots brief hundreds of times for engine failures, even though the process is well established- yet they flew over a war zone.

Bold is mine

...You are not always (very seldom in fact) with the same crew, so a brief is not only required, but a good idea to keep everyone on the same page...

...The airway was considered safe enough to keep open by Euro Control and was used by many other aircraft that day...

Thanks for making my point.

Yep- it's a good idea to brief.

But you know, several hundred aircraft departed ATL yesterday with no engine failure, so maybe it's ok to not brief?

Just like several other aircraft flew over the war zone with out being shot down, so it must be ok?...

Or perhaps that's wrong...maybe it's a good idea not to fly over war zones?

Look, I get it that well informed ops folks weighed the risks and tried to make a good decision, and that after the fact it's easy to say they shouldn't have flown there...

But when you look at it in the light of all of the hundreds of other precautions that commercial flights routinely take...then flying anywhere near a war zone sticks out as a really bad idea.

PS: Isn't this: "...was used by many other aircraft that day..." the same logic that comes into play when most folks continue to land with storms over the field?

[retox]

Also, what about local weather at the time? Questions are being asked as to why that particular was chosen, and kind of handwaving answers mention thunderstorms - it would be nice to have it nailed down a little more.

Here: http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.ht...ideo_referrer=

Eurocontrol, it is said, did not instruct the change. Ukraine ATC is accountable to that.

[brianw999]

Context: Pilots brief hundreds of times for engine failures, even though the process is well established- yet they flew over a war zone.

But you know, several hundred aircraft departed ATL with no engine failure, so maybe it's ok to not brief.

Yes, you're correct, there is no need to brief.......until an engine fails on takeoff. Then it's too late to brief !

Or perhaps that's wrong...maybe it's a good idea not to fly over war zones

Depends. The area concerned was considered by Eurocontrol and Ukrainian ATC to be safe. No-one knew at that time that Rag, Tag and Bobtail had a new toy to play with.
Not only that, my last six flights have flown over war zones during part of the journey. These include Afghanistan, Pakistan and Ukraine (2 months ago).

I get your point though. It's all down to how the available information is interpreted. I'm sure that the MH17 crew would not have flown the route that they did if they had firm information that they would be highly likely to be fired upon. They surely would not have thought that given the clearances that they were had ?

[Jpmkam]

The question now is how quickly the team will be formalized and what countries will participate in the investigation team:

And the Malaysian team have taken custody of the black boxes, which appear to be in good condition. They will held securely in Malaysian custody while the international investigation team is being formalised. At that time, we will pass the black boxes to the international investigation team for further analysis.