Malaysia T7 down!!

[TheKiecker]

Am I drunk or are you implying that someone might have shot down a civilian airliner with the intention to deviate the attention away from the Israel- Gaza conflict?

I think there is no implying about it.

I think you are drunk if you think this was an " accident"

[retox]

Why? We know it was shot down. We know thse who shot is down could not see the livery at the time of launch. We know (or at least US intel knows) the point of launch and the trajectory of the missile. We know it was launched from rebel-held territory. The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point.

A good place to start is the intercepted communications and the seized missile launcher.

A bad place to start is on the Russian version of Fox News.

Russian state TV (I assume that is what you refer to) is an excellent place to start. If 2 people tell me a conflicting story, it may be impossible to prove one true. It is often easier to find holes in the lie.

If the Putin version can be picked apart and determined improbable (really seems to be the case) you have credible evidence that what the "other" side is saying is probably true. The innocent usually don't need to twist the facts.

There remains a huge question regarding the decision by Ukraine officials to keep the airspace open above FL320. They 100% KNEW it was not safe (see text below). Would Ukraine not benefit tremendously if the rebels took down a commercial AC? Perhaps their officials considered this and they got their wish. Scoff at that if you will but this is a non-linear war. Welcome to 2014. I'm not going to go as far as some have and suggest they "staged" it (I do NOT believe that) but I do believe Ukraine will extract the value of this crisis to their benefit and that their inaction (conscious or not) allowed this to happen.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukrai...als-1405781508

The basic for those without access to wsj: "KIEV—Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess of where the Boeing 777 was flying.The disclosure deepens the mystery of why Ukrainian aviation officials failed to..."

[Gabriel]

You are missing the point. Hundreds of people have been killed in Gaza the past week by Israel, if you want to point fingers at which Russian faction shot down a plane full of Muslims go right ahead. You aren't seeing the world stage here. You really are a bright guy and I enjoy your posting skills, but turn on the TV. Half of Europe is protesting the killings in Gaza. The other half are debating which Flavor shot down a jetliner. Jet crashes distract from mass murder. Tune in.

Am I drunk or are you implying that someone might have shot down a civilian airliner with the intention to deviate the attention away from the Israel- Gaza conflict?

[TheKiecker]

Why? We know it was shot down. We know those who shot is down could not see the livery at the time of launch. We know (or at least US intel knows) the point of launch and the trajectory of the missile. We know it was launched from rebel-held territory. The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point.

A good place to start is the intercepted communications and the seized missile launcher.

A bad place to start is on the Russian version of Fox News.

You are missing the point. Hundreds of people have been killed in Gaza the past week by Israel, if you want to point fingers at which Russian faction shot down a plane full of Muslims go right ahead. You aren't seeing the world stage here. You really are a bright guy and I enjoy your posting skills, but turn on the TV. Half of Europe is protesting the killings in Gaza. The other half are debating which Flavor shot down a jetliner. Jet crashes distract from mass murder. Tune in.

[Peter Kesternich]

You think just because other people are doing foolish things, that it is okay. That's quite childish and irresponsible.

So you think it's okay to smoke crack, just because other people are doing it? (Rhetorical question/analogy)

(...)

Smoking crack is illegal. The crew of MH17 wasn't doing anything illegal. They were doing something that their flight dispatcher - in common with numerous others on that day - had deemed safe, something that neither their company (like so many others) nor theirs or any other government (including the US, the Ukrainian or the Russian) had warned about.

[Peter Kesternich]

(...) The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point. (...)

I believe the question of "why?" is pretty easy to answer: It was a mistake (as was the case in almost all instances when a civilian airliner was shot down). Neither of the parties involved in the conflict in eastern Ukraine has a motive to shoot down a neutral civilian airliner.

The question of "who?" will be more difficult to answer. Since it was a mistake (as I assume), nobody will be willing to admit to it, but point the finger at the other parties involved and trying to blame them. All the facts so far seem to implicate the pro-Russian separatists, but it will be difficult to identify the guy personally responsible and even harder to hold him accountable. The way I see it, this is not a case for The Hague.

[Peter Kesternich]

Ukranian airspace was closed to traffic that day.
Why this airplane was flying in there?
================================
Prior to the crash, the airspace in the Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region (FIR) had been closed from ground level to 32,000 feet

http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-che...b#.U8rqxvldX9U

MH17 was travelling at FL330 so it was in open air space.

[KGEG]

^Which was below the reported flight level of the downed flight.



WHY? They shot it down because they wanted to shoot down anything they thought would attack them or belonged to the enemy.


The enemy? Anyone who was not part of their group or the people they called friends.

This automatically paints a target on anything they know is not a friendly in their eyes. Thats when it goes to, okay this COULD be a plane belonging to the enemy, or it PROBABLY is, we'd better shoot it down. Or screw it, if it isn't we will seek asylum in Russia or hope someone else somehow gets blamed. If it was intentional "Now this the the opportunity we have been waiting for".


I wouldn't put any of the possibilities past the militants we are talking about.

[AVION1]

Ukranian airspace was closed to traffic that day.
Why this airplane was flying in there?
================================
Prior to the crash, the airspace in the Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region (FIR) had been closed from ground level to 32,000 feet

http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-che...b#.U8rqxvldX9U

[Evan]

Evan , please google, " false flag" .

Why? We know it was shot down. We know those who shot it down could not see the livery at the time of launch. We know (or at least US intel knows) the point of launch and the trajectory of the missile. We know it was launched from rebel-held territory. The only thing we don't know is exactly who did it and why. That seems to be the only subject to speculate at this point.

A good place to start is the intercepted communications and the seized missile launcher.

A bad place to start is on the Russian version of Fox News.

[retox]

So, my question would be: exactly what kind of super-binoculars were these rebels using and why did it not help them see two contrails instead of four?

Please, enough of this cocked-up theory.

I was clearly stating that it is highly improbable and went into great detail (my 2 posts that followed ) why I believe they were unable to make visual on MH17. Other well respected posters here have very recently mentioned that the rebels WOULD have been able to determine the type of AC and I just don't agree given the design of the BUK, the weather, the proximity of the launcher to the AC, and other factors.

Unfortunately this IS being reported on Russian state media which enjoys a 60% credibility rating on Ukraine issues. 94% of Russians get their news from TV while only 9% check and believe other sources (internet). Outside of Russia there are many media outlets sympathetic to Putin or flat-out anti-US.

We live in a world where media is controlled and propaganda is used, to some extent, against citizens of every country.

Discussing this "cocked-up theory" along with who believes it and why followed by a thorough discussion of why it is not possible (in a civil manner), I believe, gets us all closer to to truth.

[TheKiecker]

So, my question would be: exactly what kind of super-binoculars were these rebels using and why did it not help them see two contrails instead of four?

Please, enough of this cocked-up theory.

Evan , please google, " false flag" .

[Evan]

A portion of the world believes (as Russian state media has suggested) that this was an attempt Putin's plane (by Ukraine and/or the US) which was rumored to be in that area around the same time and looks strikingly (no pun intended) similar.

The story is, at best, questionable ...

So, my question would be: exactly what kind of super-binoculars were these rebels using and why did it not help them see two contrails instead of four?

Please, enough of this cocked-up theory.

[Haendli]

Topic and Tone in this Thread

I Am sorry to see this thread going away from expert talks about a Air desaster to a political influenced exchanged of unbalanced theories that just speculate in the direction agains the party the poster dislikes.

As a long but more passive follower especially the charges agains Brian "You have a long history of dishonest hateful hypocritical political rants, unfounded personal attacks, racist comments, immature vulgar/lewd comments, etc. For a moderator you are uncivilized and setting a bad example" i cant understand i also disagree with some of his "facts" but i know him as balanced und definitly not racist or otherwise biased Senior Member here.

So pls go back to diskuss possible Aspects of the flighttechnical aspects of this tragedy. Greets Mike

[AVION1]

Do FDR's record TCAS events and if so, would the incoming missile @ 700 kg trigger TCAS?

Obviously evasion would have been impossible, but it would provide one more documented piece of evidence that the plane was downed by a missile.

That is assuming that looters haven't already compromised the CDR and FDR

BF

No, the TCAS works with the signal from the other aircraft transponder. The TCAS is not a radar. Remember the mid air collision in Brazil some years ago? GOL 737 and a small business jet?, the small jet had the transponder off.