Malaysia T7 down!!

[retox]

No-one knew at that time that Rag, Tag and Bobtail had a new toy to play with.

Incorrect.

"KIEV—Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines*Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of*felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess*of where the*Boeing*BA*777 was flying."

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

So tell me again why they said it's safe. So tell me again what they shared with Eurocontrol.

"...the AN-30 and ILl-6 were shot down by MANPADS, which stands for man-portable air-defense systems, a small missile launcher you carry on your shoulder. It can only fire to an altitude of about 11,500 feet, but MH17 was flying at 33,000 feet. That's way, way outside of the range of shoulder-fired MANPADS missiles.That's why, at first, people were wondering if rebels even had the capability to shoot down a high-flying commercial airliner like MH17. But there was another incident just on Monday, July 14, that did not get very much attention at the time. That day, over eastern Ukraine, an Antonov AN-26 Ukrainian military transport plane was hit by a missile while flying over eastern Ukraine — at 21,000 feet altitude. That's far beyond the range of a shoulder-fired system like the MANPADS."

THIS WAS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE!

Ukraine ATC obviously knew. Certainly Eurocontrol knew. Certainly the airlines knew.

Stop using apologist words like "hindsight" and call it what it is.

Many airlines including *Qantas, Cathay Pacific, British Airways, Air France, Korean Air, Air Berlin, Asiana, and China Air*saw the risk and paid the price to route around. This is called corporate responsibility. Capitalism is supposed to reward this behaviour. Fly these airlines. They give a damn about safety.

Other airlines prioritized money over safety and many people died. The "hindsight" excuse only works if it wasn't painfully obvious. Ukraine officials, Eurocontrol, and Malaysian Airlines were derelict in their duties.

[AVION1]

First evidence of a missile strike:

[Evan]

What's so different this time with respect to the pilot's families? At least pilot error is out of the question here...

You answered your own question there. Because pilots perform a public service with life-and-death consequences for error, I still believe the CVR should be made public in cases of egregious pilot error. But this had nothing to do with pilot error. All I would expect aside from silence are expressions of confusion and possibly terror or even personal messages that should be kept private for obvious reasons. The only exception I can see is if portions of the CVR involve discussions of concern about the flight path, possible revealing cockpit gradient issues. In any case, all recording after the missile strike should remain private.

[EconomyClass]

It goes without saying that Putin and his animals are "responsible" and should be dealt with.

I would argue, however, that aviation safety involves the mitigation of all risk that CAN be controlled. A hurricane or an erupting volcano can bring down a plane. They are outside of the control of the aviation industry so they are avoided.

War involving alcohol-addled sub-humans with advanced AA weapons is outside the control of the aviation industry and it too must be avoided.

This is a situation where placing blame on the culprit feels good but does absolutely nothing to prevent this from happening again.

I suppose we agree, you are talking morals and maybe politics and I am talking systems and procedures.

How do you propose to "deal with" a nuclear power? People in the USA love to beat war drums. I think it is some sort of testosterone thing. But its like Obama's "red line". It doesn't fool anyone but us. I think some people wish we were in 1936, sending in troops to chase Hitler out of the Rhineland, but we are in an age where ONE bomb could destroy millions of lives. How can we handle 300 casualties by threatening the death of millions. You think for a moment that "animal Putin" doesn't go into these tings realizing the TOP priority for all sides is that incidents shouldn't spin out of control like they did in 1914?

[retox]

And here we are again. Is it not earily similar? Is the govermnent not painfully late in its advisory?

If a plane goes down after this, will you apologize for airline?

"Delta Airlines just announced that it is halting all flights to Israel indefinitely as violence wrecks the region,*according to*the Associated Press.A Delta flight from New York to Tel Aviv*was diverted*on Tuesday amid reports that a rocket landed near Ben Gurion Airport...

It's not yet clear whether other airlines are going to halt all flights to Israel, but U.S. Airways canceled its Tuesday flight from Philadelphia to Tel Aviv...

It is so far unclear if the FAA plans to advise other airlines not to fly into Israel."

http://www.businessinsider.com/flights-halted-to-israel-2014-7

"Washington (AFP) - The United States on Monday warned Americans against traveling to Israel and the Gaza Strip, urging them to postpone any visits amid the current conflict."

http://news.yahoo.com/us-warns-against-travel-israel-gaza-220227459.html

[Quench]

Do FDR's record TCAS events and if so, would the incoming missile @ 700 kg trigger TCAS?

Obviously evasion would have been impossible, but it would provide one more documented piece of evidence that the plane was downed by a missile.

That is assuming that looters haven't already compromised the CDR and FDR

BF

There has been at least one case where using the delay between two or three microphones on the CVR to make a determination on the location of the explosion.
Clearly there is no missile lock detector on commercial aircraft but clever use of the last milliseconds of data can provide evidence. Maybe the TCAS data could help to eliminate/suggest air-to-air attack.

[EconomyClass]

Depends. The area concerned was considered by Eurocontrol and Ukrainian ATC to be safe. No-one knew at that time that Rag, Tag and Bobtail had a new toy to play with.
Not only that, my last six flights have flown over war zones during part of the journey. These include Afghanistan, Pakistan and Ukraine (2 months ago).

I wish they'd come out in public and explain the thought process that says "an airspace in which planes, even civilian planes, are crashing after launch of antiaircraft missiles" is "safe". That to me is a bit like saying "it is safe to fly straight through thunder clouds because planes have successfully done it." Evel Knievel successfully made death defying jumps, so his sport was "safe", right? This, to me, is transparent rationalization by those who make the statements. It wasn't safe, it was risky, and 300 gullible passengers paid with their lives for the decisions made by higher ups. To me, it is the Challenger disaster all again. "We think the O-rings will hold at that launch temperature". Oops! My bad! We were wrong!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-2...-paths/5612094

[retox]

How do you propose to "deal with" a nuclear power? People in the USA love to beat war drums. I think it is some sort of testosterone thing. But its like Obama's "red line". It doesn't fool anyone but us. I think some people wish we were in 1936, sending in troops to chase Hitler out of the Rhineland, but we are in an age where ONE bomb could destroy millions of lives. How can we handle 300 casualties by threatening the death of millions. You think for a moment that "animal Putin" doesn't go into these tings realizing the TOP priority for all sides is that incidents shouldn't spin out of control like they did in 1914?

You realize you accurately quoted just ONE single word in your response?

The rest is a half-literate rant where you stuff a bunch of very ridiculous words into my mouth. What the hell is that about?

Fuck Putin. Russia is already an also-ran. Cut them off at the balls economically, cut off Gazprom, support Ukraine so they can remain independent, and STAY THE HELL OUT OF THEIR AIRSPACE. Done.

[Quench]

Ok, not the same trigger-happiness flavor than than the one likely displayed by the revels here (if they indeed sot down the Malaysian airplane). The Vinceness flavor was, what was it called? Oh, yes, 'scenario fulfillment'.

Research since the Vincennes incident, which was mainly focused on police shootings shows that; as our adrenaline levels increase at first we have heightened awareness and faster reflexes, more strength etc. However as adrenaline levels increase further the forebrain starts to shutdown and we lose all ability to reason. The reptilian brain takes over.
The book was called blink IIRC

So while logically we can reason that one event is more justify able than the other. I would assert that no logical reasoning was taking place in either.

[Jpmkam]

British Experts to Analyze MH17 Black Boxes

Britain's prime minister says black boxes from the Malaysia Airlines plane downed in eastern Ukraine will be examined by U.K. air accident investigators.

David Cameron said on Twitter that British experts at the Air Accidents Investigation Branch will retrieve data from the flight recorders for analysis, following a request from the Dutch government.

Earlier Tuesday, pro-Russia separatists in Ukraine handed the two black boxes from Flight 17 over to Malaysian investigators in the city of Donetsk. Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said the handover was part of an agreement he had reached with rebel leader Alexander Borodai.

Najib said the black boxes appeared "to be in good condition."

[brianw999]

Incorrect.

"KIEV—Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines*Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of*felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess*of where the*Boeing*BA*777 was flying."

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

So tell me again why they said it's safe. So tell me again what they shared with Eurocontrol.

"...the AN-30 and ILl-6 were shot down by MANPADS, which stands for man-portable air-defense systems, a small missile launcher you carry on your shoulder. It can only fire to an altitude of about 11,500 feet, but MH17 was flying at 33,000 feet. That's way, way outside of the range of shoulder-fired MANPADS missiles.That's why, at first, people were wondering if rebels even had the capability to shoot down a high-flying commercial airliner like MH17. But there was another incident just on Monday, July 14, that did not get very much attention at the time. That day, over eastern Ukraine, an Antonov AN-26 Ukrainian military transport plane was hit by a missile while flying over eastern Ukraine — at 21,000 feet altitude. That's far beyond the range of a shoulder-fired system like the MANPADS."

THIS WAS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE!

Ukraine ATC obviously knew. Certainly Eurocontrol knew. Certainly the airlines knew.

Stop using apologist words like "hindsight" and call it what it is.

Many airlines including *Qantas, Cathay Pacific, British Airways, Air France, Korean Air, Air Berlin, Asiana, and China Air*saw the risk and paid the price to route around. This is called corporate responsibility. Capitalism is supposed to reward this behaviour. Fly these airlines. They give a damn about safety.

Other airlines prioritized money over safety and many people died. The "hindsight" excuse only works if it wasn't painfully obvious. Ukraine officials, Eurocontrol, and Malaysian Airlines were derelict in their duties.

The key point is that UKRAINE INTELLIGENCE knew that the insurgents had a missile system. There is nothing that I have seen (although I could be wrong, I haven't read every single word here !) that says that this was passed on to Eurocontrol or even the Ukraine ATC, AT THAT TIME.

Surely to God you don't believe that Eurocontrol would leave that airspace open if they knew about the threat of a high altitude capable ground to air missile system ?

"...But there was another incident just on Monday, July 14, that did not get very much attention at the time. That day, over eastern Ukraine, an Antonov AN-26 Ukrainian military transport plane was hit by a missile while flying over eastern Ukraine — at 21,000 feet altitude. That's far beyond the range of a shoulder-fired system like the MANPADS."

The Antonov was 12,000 feet below the B777. This could easily have led some to think that high altitude airliners were safe. As the clip says...Not much attention was paid to this ?
This argument can be batted to and fro until the cows come home. There are so many "if, possibly, maybe, could be, is thought to to have been's etc." that we probably will never know for sure what happened unless the numb nuts who actually pulled the trigger put their hand up to it.

[Jpmkam]

First evidence of a missile strike:

Pretty telling signs for sure of the fragmentation shrapnel from a missile warhead.

[Jpmkam]

More examples of missile damage on MH17.

[retox]

The key point is that UKRAINE INTELLIGENCE knew that the insurgents had a missile system. There is nothing that I have seen (although I could be wrong, I haven't read every single word here !) that says that this was passed on to Eurocontrol or even the Ukraine ATC, AT THAT TIME.

ATC and Eurocontrol could have simply read the accounts that were published in the media worldwide a full 3 days before MH17.**http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334

As an aside, the Minister of Defense does not think to tell anyone?

Surely to God you don't believe that Eurocontrol would leave that airspace open if they knew about the threat of a high altitude capable ground to air missile system ?

Yes, I believe it. The evidence proves that they did.
Google the AN-26 incident from 3 days before. "They say the An-26 plane was hit at an altitude of 6,500m (21,325ft).The plane was targeted with "a more powerful missile" than a shoulder-carried missile, "probably fired" from Russia."


Here is the timeline. NONE of this is disputed - it was widely reported:

• July 14, plane shot down at 21, 325 ft.
• Ukraine Minister of Defense says it was "probably a powerful missile from Russia".
• Worldwide media covers the event.
• Nobody thinks to tell Eurocontrol or Ukraine ATC?
• Ukraine ATC and Eurocontrol don't watch the news for 3 days?
• Eurocontrol and Ukraine ATC put a commercial plane with 298 people less than 50 miles away from the same place a plane was shot down by "a more powerful missile probably from Russia".
  

[Gabriel]

Eurocontrol and Ukraine ATC and Malaysia Airlines put a commercial plane with 298 people less than 50 miles away from the same place a plane was shot down by "a more powerful missile probably from Russia.

Fixed.