Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Malaysia T7 down!!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • James Bond
    replied
    The aftermath of this crash reminds me of this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_T...#Investigation

    Leave a comment:


  • sjwk
    replied
    Today, the BBC are saying (citing Ukrainian sources admittedly) that the rebels have prevented investigators from accessing the site, and that they are trying to transport the wreckage to Russia.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28383625

    Also:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...e-live-updates

    which says that investigators have been allowed in but aren't allowed to take anything, that rebel fighters are taking anything away found, including remains.


    If this is all true, then the site has surely been compromised and it's going to make things many times harder for those investigating?

    Leave a comment:


  • brianw999
    replied
    Originally posted by tsv View Post
    Sorry Brian but these are nowhere near the facts at all.

    Firstly it has not been established that Putin supplied the Missiles. The Ukraine also has these missiles and the Separatists have captured some Ukrainian Weapons during the fighting. It could well be, and in fact has been suggested in numerous media reports, that the Separatists acquired them from the Ukrainian Army. It is not even known who fired the missile, while it most likely was the Separatists it could also have been the Ukrainian Army or the Russian Army, both of whom are on high alert and both of whom have mistakenly shot down Airliners with Missiles before.

    Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence that anybody was deliberately trying to shoot down a Civilian Airliner and to the contrary it is all but certain that they didn't intend to do this. The Separatists were hunting for Ukrainian Air Force Aircraft not Civilian Airliners and they had managed to shoot a few of these down in recent days. Even the audio tape the Ukrainians released that was purportedly intercepted communication from the Rebels clearly shows they thought they had hit a Military plane and were looking for Pilots who may have bailed out by Parachute. Not many 777 Pilots wear Parachutes!

    If it was either of the regular Armies again it would also have a been a case of mistaken identity because it was in nobody's interest to deliberately down an Airliner and this is simply not what happened.

    A 777 may look a lot different from an IL-76/AN26 close up but if it's cruising at 32 000 feet and spotted from who knows how many km away it could look like anything - or nothing in particular. They might have even been using radar screens to track it for all we know which would give them even less of an idea about what it was. And as I have tried to point out in this thread previously, if the US Navy can't identify what it is shooting at it is hardly surprising an irregular army which entered a war 2 months ago had the same problem.

    Whoever fired this missile was incompetent and grossly negligent (the same as others who have made the same mistake). But I don't believe for a second there was any intention to hit MH17 and I severely doubt anybody will ever face War Crime charges. At least I can't recall anybody getting charged for War Crimes when there is collateral damage during a War. That sort of charge is more for deliberate murders like in Bosnia or Nazi's involved in Hitler's Gas Camps.
    Well, I'm going on what was reported by the BBC last night. Anyway, I'm going to sit back now and refrain from commenting further. I know what I think should happen and there is nothing to be gained from continually banging that nail when it is already fully planted in the wall.
    One thing to be said for your post TSV.....it is probably one of the most reasonably written posts on this thread. Let's keep this on topic from now on. Yes, there is a degree of political comment that is appropriate here, and TSV has nailed how to do that but that does not extend to some of the tin foil hat attacks that have appeared here. Moderation will be used from now on if necessary.
    Last edited by brianw999; 2014-07-19, 10:10.

    Leave a comment:


  • tsv
    replied
    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    That statement is out of order. All he asked for was for this forum to back away from all the political hatred and spin doctoring that is going on. What has he lied about. An apology is expected.

    The facts as they are known at the moment by the West are....

    1. Putins regime supplied the missiles.

    2. Russian separatists DELIBERATELY fired the missile/s in order to shoot down what they KNEW was a civilian aircraft. They INTENDED TO DO IT. This is the difference between the Iranian shoot down by the USN and this Ukrainian incident. The US Navy did not INTEND to shoot down a civilian aircraft.

    3. Because of the intent in this latest act this makes the separatist leadership, commanders, call them what you will and Putin by association as the supplier of the weapons, complicit in a war crime. As such they should be taken to The Hague and charged with this crime. Now, getting Putin to The Hague isn't going to happen but you can bet your boots that he'll offer up some sacrificial goats. Failing that there is a good chance that gunshots will be heard in some remote forest signalling the end of those involved in this war crime.

    The voices of 295 dead innocents MUST be heard.
    Sorry Brian but these are nowhere near the facts at all.

    Firstly it has not been established that Putin supplied the Missiles. The Ukraine also has these missiles and the Separatists have captured some Ukrainian Weapons during the fighting. It could well be, and in fact has been suggested in numerous media reports, that the Separatists acquired them from the Ukrainian Army. It is not even known who fired the missile, while it most likely was the Separatists it could also have been the Ukrainian Army or the Russian Army, both of whom are on high alert and both of whom have mistakenly shot down Airliners with Missiles before.

    Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence that anybody was deliberately trying to shoot down a Civilian Airliner and to the contrary it is all but certain that they didn't intend to do this. The Separatists were hunting for Ukrainian Air Force Aircraft not Civilian Airliners and they had managed to shoot a few of these down in recent days. Even the audio tape the Ukrainians released that was purportedly intercepted communication from the Rebels clearly shows they thought they had hit a Military plane and were looking for Pilots who may have bailed out by Parachute. Not many 777 Pilots wear Parachutes!

    If it was either of the regular Armies again it would also have a been a case of mistaken identity because it was in nobody's interest to deliberately down an Airliner and this is simply not what happened.

    A 777 may look a lot different from an IL-76/AN26 close up but if it's cruising at 32 000 feet and spotted from who knows how many km away it could look like anything - or nothing in particular. They might have even been using radar screens to track it for all we know which would give them even less of an idea about what it was. And as I have tried to point out in this thread previously, if the US Navy can't identify what it is shooting at it is hardly surprising an irregular army which entered a war 2 months ago had the same problem.

    Whoever fired this missile was incompetent and grossly negligent (the same as others who have made the same mistake). But I don't believe for a second there was any intention to hit MH17 and I severely doubt anybody will ever face War Crime charges. At least I can't recall anybody getting charged for War Crimes when there is collateral damage during a War. That sort of charge is more for deliberate murders like in Bosnia or Nazi's involved in Hitler's Gas Camps.

    Leave a comment:


  • brianw999
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
    Brian, do we really know that the separatists KNEW what they were shooting at?
    The aircraft, a large twin engined jet that does not bear any resemblance to any military aircraft operated by the Ukraine was flying at FL 330 in a very well known civil aviation air corridor, complying with Ukrainian ATC flight instructions along with other airlines doing the same thing.
    Some numb nuts country yokel fires a sophisticated missile up there. There's only one thing he's going to hit. Someone usurped their authority basically because they were in an "I've got a new toy and I want to use it NOW !" scenario and fired off a missile. Recordings of conversations released since the war crime was committed seem to show that the separatists knew what they were doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter Kesternich
    replied
    Here's a link everbody on here should read:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880

    Especially the part about the other airlines using a similar route (including such minor players as Singapore Airlines, Virgin Atlantic and Lufthansa). Maybe this will stop the Malaysia Airlines-bashing a little bit. Can't help it, but I have always had a place in my heart for this airline and they have always treated me well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter Kesternich
    replied
    Brian, do we really know that the separatists KNEW what they were shooting at?

    Leave a comment:


  • brianw999
    replied
    Originally posted by orangehuggy View Post
    there are reports that several commercial passenger aircraft crossed the restricted airspace in East Ukraine at or below FL320 before MH17 entered it at FL330. I don't know how to easily find this info for the few days before the 17th, perhaps also for the 17th itself. Preciate it if someone could let me know.
    There was a post in this thread that was deleted by the writer that showed the flight tracks of several aircraft that departed from Central Europe across the region around the time of this war crime. The poster chose to take it down and that must be respected.

    This might be a good time to mention that posts that are made here and subsequently taken down by their authors can still be read by the admins.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter Kesternich
    replied
    So, here's my take on this. I think that this tragedy is plain and simple a mistake by whoever operated that missile launcher. Looking at it in my - admittedly amateurish - criminalistic way, there is a lack of motive in all three parties that are involved in this.
    a) The Ukrainian government most definitely wouldn't have anything to gain from shooting down any plane in that area.
    b) At this moment, Wladimir Putin is probably hopping mad at the "pro-Russian" separatists, because shooting down a passenger airliner does not at all help his (or their) cause, and makes it almost impossible to give the Russian separatists his support. At the moment it looks like he can't control what is going on, and he sure doesn't like looking like an idiot.
    c) The separatists can't very well admit they made a mistake because that will make them look weak.
    As for the responsibility of Malaysia Airlines, sure - they could have chosen another route. But while other airlines did that, many others didn't. There was no requirement and no official warning from ICAO and IATA. I don't see choosing this route as a cost-cutting measure on their part. They were just in wrong place at the wrong time... like so many other "collateral" victims before them.

    Leave a comment:


  • brianw999
    replied
    Originally posted by ATFS_Crash
    Jpmkam is a lying wussy. If he would man up, he would admit that politics are on-topic. Politics, terrorism and war are causal factors to the airline being shot down. Related politics, terrorism and war are "on topic" as causal factors.
    That statement is out of order. All he asked for was for this forum to back away from all the political hatred and spin doctoring that is going on. What has he lied about. An apology is expected.

    The facts as they are known at the moment by the West are....

    1. Putins regime supplied the missiles.

    2. Russian separatists DELIBERATELY fired the missile/s in order to shoot down what they KNEW was a civilian aircraft. They INTENDED TO DO IT. This is the difference between the Iranian shoot down by the USN and this Ukrainian incident. The US Navy did not INTEND to shoot down a civilian aircraft.

    3. Because of the intent in this latest act this makes the separatist leadership, commanders, call them what you will and Putin by association as the supplier of the weapons, complicit in a war crime. As such they should be taken to The Hague and charged with this crime. Now, getting Putin to The Hague isn't going to happen but you can bet your boots that he'll offer up some sacrificial goats. Failing that there is a good chance that gunshots will be heard in some remote forest signalling the end of those involved in this war crime.

    The voices of 295 dead innocents MUST be heard.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jpmkam
    replied
    Originally posted by ATFS_Crash
    You're on a rant, because you didn't read properly. You're taking my words out of context.

    I was saying hypocritical wussies like Evan should man up. The forum has a long track record of a double standard. The wussies hypocritically play politics; criticism and slander of conservatism is tolerated and encouraged; yet hypocritically when there is justified criticism of Obama or liberalism they show they are wussies by throwing temper tantrums, going on tirades, demand censorship, making unfounded personal attacks, etc.

    Instead of being whining hypocrites; they should man up and accept the fact that their politics contributed to this tragedy. Not that I expect them to man up. There are likely to be mama's girls for all their lives.

    Example:



    Jpmkam is a lying wussy. If he would man up, he would admit that politics are on-topic. Politics, terrorism and war are causal factors to the airline being shot down. Related politics, terrorism and war in "on topic" as causal factors.
    Nice try.

    Leave a comment:


  • orangehuggy
    replied
    there are reports that several commercial passenger aircraft crossed the restricted airspace in East Ukraine at or below FL320 before MH17 entered it at FL330. I don't know how to easily find this info for the few days before the 17th, perhaps also for the 17th itself. Preciate it if someone could let me know.

    Leave a comment:


  • tsv
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Not exactly. They were highly trained for military engagements. Their training did not adequately prepare them for a scenario in which a blue water AEGIS cruiser is operating in a area as tight as the Straits of Hormuz under the command of a screwball captain using it to pursue and fire upon gunboats in Iranian territorial waters. This was not long after the USS Stark had been hit in the gulf. It's hard to imagine a more tense situation for the crew that day.

    THe important distinction here is that the VIncennes was firing in perceived self-defense, whereas whoever shot down the Malaysian jet was just out for blood.
    Don't buy the bit about their being a distinction. The Vincennes didn't exactly have a desperate need to be permanently lurking off the Iranian Coast, there was no War between the US & Iran and the US was never under threat from Iranian weapons.

    The US navy did (and probably still does) regularly cross in and out of Iranian waters. If there was tension in the area at the time then the US was definitely a prime contributor to that tension. I can't imagine the US would tolerate a heavily armed Battle Group permanently hovering off the US Coastline and even crossing into their territorial waters.

    If you are going to station yourself off another Countries' Coast Line with extremely destructive Surface to Air Missiles you better have a water tight system of determining which Aircraft in the Area are Military and which are Civilian. If you don't you shouldn't be there.

    Re MH17 the Ukraine separatists are in a Civil war with the Ukrainian Army. Whether you or I believe there should be a War or not is irrelevant - the fact is they are at war and it is a Soldiers job to shoot the enemy before they are themselves shot. It's kind of the idea of war to spill your enemies blood before he spills yours so I guess you could say they were "out for blood".

    Of course Warring Parties do have responsibilities under the Geneva Convention not to hurt innocent parties etc. But in any War there is "Collateral Damage", to borrow that lovely US expression, and nobody has inflicted more Collateral Damage in the last 50 years than the US.

    I can't agree that the Vincennes incident was any more justifiable or excusable than MH17.

    Leave a comment:


  • James Bond
    replied
    Originally posted by Jpmkam View Post
    Can we leave politics out for another thread...

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Yes, in that instance, the Navy WERE an example of totally fucking untrained idiots.
    Not exactly. They were highly trained for military engagements. Their training did not adequately prepare them for a scenario in which a blue water AEGIS cruiser is operating in a area as tight as the Straits of Hormuz under the command of a screwball captain using it to pursue and fire upon gunboats in Iranian territorial waters. This was not long after the USS Stark had been hit in the gulf. It's hard to imagine a more tense situation for the crew that day.

    THe important distinction here is that the VIncennes was firing in perceived self-defense, whereas whoever shot down the Malaysian jet was just out for blood.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X