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  • TheKiecker
    replied
    Flying over a warzone is one thing. Stupid.

    Flying over a warzone, and THEN CHANGING COURSE is suicidal. Its exactly what an army on the lookout for a nasty surprise would be weary of.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by ATFS_Crash
    My point is they were not untrained idiots. They were highly trained idiots following foolish procedures and making foolish mistakes.
    I think that more the later than the former. But ok, that's for another thread.

    In this instance, if the missile was fired by the rebels, they most likely were not trained and had no procedures or rules of engagement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jpmkam
    replied
    NSTB Go Team is already on their way to area, along with a team of FBI investigators.

    Leave a comment:


  • AVION1
    replied
    Whoever pushed the fire button, should be convicted for war crimes and genocide !

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
    And what precisely do you base that all-encompassing little gem of a quote on ?
    It was a clear reference to the US Navy shoting down a civil airplane (Irnanian Airliens DC-9 IIRC) in the Persian Gulf, a civil commercial airplane that was on a scheduled fligh, with an pproved plan, had taken off from his assigned altitude, was fliyng straight and climbing to cruise altitude along a civil aviation airway, and was squacking it's assigned transponder code but, that the US navy mistook for an enemy F-14 that was in a typical attack maneuver and diving towards them and not giving the correct "friend" code to the automatic firend-or-foe interrogation nor replying the radio calls, none of which was done in the assigned civil ATC frequency for the zone.

    Yes, in that instance, the Navy WERE an example of totally fucking untrained idiots.
    And the worst part is that the captain of the ship, who was particularly known to be a totally fucking untrained idiot that tended to engage without obeying the rules of engagement, and who was the main responsible for this act, was promoted, got medals, etc instead of being jailed by the Martial Court.

    Leave a comment:


  • brianw999
    replied
    Originally posted by tsv View Post
    Or to the US Military - another example of total fucking untrained idiots.
    And what precisely do you base that all-encompassing little gem of a quote on ?

    US Rangers, Marine Corps, Navy Seals, UK SAS, SBS, Marines and Paras, French Foreign Legion, even for that matter the Russian Spetznas to name but a few....... The best trained and equipped military operatives in the world....none of which you would want to piss off without risking ownership of your allotted 6 feet of ground.

    Leave a comment:


  • retox
    replied
    Originally posted by sjwk View Post
    Just as a follow-up to this, apparently the FAA no-fly zone created in April only covered the Crimea region of Ukraine, and adjacent coastal areas, not the Eastern Ukraine region. The FAA only prohibited flights over the area where this accident occurred yesterday, after the event.

    Source: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releas...6655&cid=TW233

    I'm not commenting on whether it was sensible or not to fly over the area (with the wonderful benefit of hindsight, clearly it wasn't), just on whether there was instruction not to do so.
    Yes, unfortunately that bit of misinformation was (and still is) being spread by major news organizations. CBS, for example, just posted “The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has barred U.S. Airlines from flying over this area for some time.”

    Impossible at this point to know if these are genuine there is now audio of the rebels in the moments after the crash discussing what they did.

    [Male voice, identified as Cossack commander Nikolai Kozitsyn] That means they were carrying spies. Fuck them, got it? They shouldn't be fucking flying. There is a war going on.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-2...alflow_twitter

    Leave a comment:


  • sjwk
    replied
    Originally posted by retox View Post
    Strongly disagree! The FAA has not allowed US airlines there for 3 months.
    Just as a follow-up to this, apparently the FAA no-fly zone created in April only covered the Crimea region of Ukraine, and adjacent coastal areas, not the Eastern Ukraine region. The FAA only prohibited flights over the area where this accident occurred yesterday, after the event.

    Source: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releas...6655&cid=TW233

    I'm not commenting on whether it was sensible or not to fly over the area (with the wonderful benefit of hindsight, clearly it wasn't), just on whether there was instruction not to do so.

    Leave a comment:


  • retox
    replied
    Originally posted by Jpmkam View Post
    CNN report on black boxes:
    What comes next; in Russian it's called "Maskerova".

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskirovka

    Leave a comment:


  • retox
    replied
    We know that since the beginning of the fighting in Ukraine, 10 aircraft (five*Mi-24 Hind, two*Mi-8 Hip helicopters, one An-2, one*An-30*and the Il-76 at Luhansk) have been shot down by the local militia using portable surface-to-air missile systems.

    And there were airlines prudent enough to avoid this area: "Both Korean Air Lines and Asiana Airlines have confirmed that they have not flown planes through Ukrainian airspace since March 3.“We detoured our flight because of political instability there,” said Lee Hyo-min, a spokeswoman at Asiana, which had been flying a cargo plane through Ukrainian airspace once a week from Brussels to Incheon, South Korea, until that point.Korean Air Lines had been sending 42 passenger and cargo flights per month through Ukrainian airspace, but those flights had been rerouted, beginning on March 3, company officials said." (Source http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/19..._r=1&referrer= )

    I just don't see a "hindsight " argument being valid here. Basically you have a broke airline that lost $1.3B US in the last 3 years. They've been hemorrhaging money since MH340 and they've responded by lowering prices and lowering costs - literally taking shortcuts.

    Typical mismanaged business death spiral.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jpmkam
    replied
    Black boxes

    CNN report on black boxes:

    Where are the black boxes?

    Ukraine claims the aircraft's black boxes have been sent to Russia along with the missile launcher used to target MH17, a news report says.

    Ukraine's Interfax news agency quotes Interior Ministry adviser Anton Geraschenko as saying that Ukrainian intelligence sources say the Buk launcher and data recorders were handed over to Russian agents across the border at a checkpoint near Luhansk overnight.

    The flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder -- together known as the flight's black boxes -- would be important to the investigation of exactly what happened to the plane.

    Leave a comment:


  • tsv
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    This is what happens when you give SA-11's to a bunch of separatist halfwits. Regardless of who actually shot this a/c down, Putin is ultimately to blame for arming and emboldening these total fucking untrained idiots.

    280 pax, many probably bound for holidays. This is too horrible to even think about.
    Or to the US Military - another example of total fucking untrained idiots.

    Leave a comment:


  • retox
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    The Daily Mail, read by many millions more morons every day...

    Enter the facts: Putin called Obama to deny Russia's inlvement and to express his condolences. He blamed it on the resumption of Ukranian military operations. Obama discussed with him the necessity of neither nation interfering with the crash investigation. In other words, Obama immediately stepped up to let Putin know that any tampering with the evidence would have serious ramifications. Putin is said to have agreed to this, so how is that a dispute?

    Politics are certainly behind this tragedy and there are a lot of emotions flaring over this, mine included, but Obama-hating has no place here, Please respect the seriousness of this event and take that nonsense somewhere else.

    (cc: Brian)
    Adding "Enter the facts" does not automatically make what you say afterwords true especially without a source. You seem to have a lot of details regarding this conversation that the White House never released. Go ahead and call me a moron and say I'm "emotional".

    The facts, however, speak for themselves. Politics look as if they are going to interfere with the investigation here so they are 100% relevant to the discussion.

    From AP:
    "Here's the full readout of the call from the White House: President Obama spoke with Russian President Putin today about the situation in Ukraine and the additional sanctions on Russian individuals and entities that the United States announced on July 16.* President Obama emphasized that he remains committed to a diplomatic solution and that sanctions were not his preferred course of action.*President Obama noted, however, that in the face of extensive evidence that Russia is significantly increasing the provision of heavy weapons to separatists in Ukraine and Russia’s failure to take other steps set out by the United States and Europe to de-escalate the crisis, it was necessary to impose additional sanctions, consistent with the clear statements from the United States and our allies following the G-7 meeting in Brussels. President Obama also reiterated his concerns regarding the buildup of Russian forces near the Ukrainian border.*President Obama called on President Putin to take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation, including to press separatists to agree to a cease-fire, support a roadmap for negotiations, halt the flow of fighters and weapons into Ukraine, obtain the release of all hostages still held by the separatists, and work to establish an effective OSCE border-monitoring mechanism.*He noted that Russia would face continued costs and isolation unless it takes these concrete steps.* The President emphasized that Russia and the United States have a shared interest in supporting a stable and prosperous Ukraine. President Obama and President Putin agreed on the need for a peaceful resolution to the Ukraine crisis achieved through diplomatic means. During the call, President Putin noted the early reports of a downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border."

    Not sure where you got your narrative? Made it up?

    Leave a comment:


  • sjwk
    replied
    From avherald:
    On Jul 18th 2014 Malaysia Airlines reported the Boeing 777-200 registration 9M-MRD, that had operated MH-17 on Jul 17th 2014, had last undergone maintenance on Jul 11th 2014 and had "clean bill of health" with all communication systems operating normally. The aircraft, introduced to service in 1997, had accumulated 75,322 flight hours in 11,434 cycles. There was no distress call from the aircraft. "The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions."

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    P

    Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
    I think Haendli meant that such a system was in the hands of the Ukrainian rebels was not known.
    An over riding issue is that weapons that have a 5 to 10 mile range are no big deal... My 0.22 rifle has a 1 mile range, 5 and 10 and 20 mile weapons existed in the 1960s, they existed in the 1940s and i think it's a bad assumption that rag tag rebel groups can't hit a big slow un armored plane at 35k....(6 miles up).

    Leave a comment:

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