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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by retox View Post
    The extra-special part was when Putin called Obama directly this morning to say, "hey, look what I did bitch".

    And Obama was so upset that he actaully dedicated 2 whole sentences about it this morning before he got into his prepared jokes.

    I hate to make this about politics but when a commercial alirliner is plucked out of the sky and it's part of some dick dispute between these 2, it's kinda about politics.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ers-board.html
    The Daily Mail, read by many millions more morons every day...

    Enter the facts: Putin called Obama to deny Russia's involvement and to express his condolences. He blamed it on the resumption of Ukranian military operations. Obama discussed with him the necessity of neither nation interfering with the crash investigation. In other words, Obama immediately stepped up to let Putin know that any tampering with the evidence would have serious ramifications. Putin is said to have agreed to this, so how is that a dispute?

    Politics are certainly behind this tragedy and there are a lot of emotions flaring over this, mine included, but Obama-hating has no place here, Please respect the seriousness of this event and take that nonsense somewhere else.

    (cc: Brian)

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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
    I think Haendli meant that such a system was in the hands of the Ukrainian rebels was not known.
    It was known by western military intelligence that they were in possession of SA-11's and at least one Buk launcher captured from the Ukranian military. It was also known that they were on a mad turkey shoot of any transport that caught their beady little eyes. It was suspected that the Russians might also be supplying more of these.

    What wasn't known by these various agencies, it seems, was communication skills and basic math. Same old story.

    Leave a comment:


  • ultraflight
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
    I think Haendli meant that such a system was in the hands of the Ukrainian rebels was not known.
    Quite. A classic example of underestimating the enemy by the authorities. With hindsight, of course.

    Anyone know at which altitude the Ukrainian plane was shot down from, earlier?
    Last edited by ultraflight; 2014-07-18, 07:03. Reason: Additional question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter Kesternich
    replied
    Originally posted by ultraflight View Post
    In 1960 Gary Powers was shot down from 60.000 feet by a anti-aircraft Soviet missile.
    I think Haendli meant that such a system was in the hands of the Ukrainian rebels was not known.
    Last edited by Peter Kesternich; 2014-07-18, 05:36.

    Leave a comment:


  • ultraflight
    replied
    Originally posted by Haendli View Post
    The Restriction of the FAA was only for possible bad fight controlers and russian and ucrainian Controlers giving different orders. And it was only for the Area that claimed itself indipendent fro the Ukraine so only the southern part was included in this area niot the eastern Area where it happend. In Crisis or "War Areas" the Airspace is only closed to the flightlevel that possible Anti Aircraft system can reach. Till Today most Airlines and Authorities thaugt this would be About 12000 feet. That a System that is capable up to 60000 feet got known to military and intelligence services some weeks ago and did not find there way to flight Authorities and Airlines.

    Greets Mike
    In 1960 Gary Powers was shot down from 60.000 feet by a anti-aircraft Soviet missile.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter Kesternich
    replied
    Well - here are a few thoughts of mine (just got home and read the news):

    a) Malaysia Airlines is almost 100% government-owned so they need not file for bankruptcy or something similar, and they will survive, as long as the country Malaysia gives them money.

    b) With not even the FAA restricting overflight in this particular area of the Ukraine, I doubt that the airline can be faulted for this tragedy. I am pretty certain that plenty of other European and Asian airlines have passed over this area in the last couple of weeks without incident (personally, I am too lazy to look it up on flight radar).

    c) Giving the separatists high-flying SAMs is criminal.

    d) Overflying zones of unrest (to avoid the words 'war zone') is common practice. For example, many flights to Southeast Asia pass over Kashmir.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jpmkam
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Lots. There will be no "MISSILE HIT" ACARS message, but many different systems failing at the same time can point to a sudden catastrophic failure.
    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    The discussion of whether they should or shouldn't have flown there is going to require very careful analysis.

    Sitting here to today, after the fact, indeed they should not have flown there.

    However, we really aren't in a position to say whether the decision making beforehand was sound or not until there is more investigation.

    I'll say that given the normally extreme safety culture that exists for just about all aspects of flight, that planes should stay way away from "war zones".

    But as MCM is pointing out that it's not clear that this plane was truly in the predetermined danger zone...

    Leave a comment:


  • MCM
    replied
    ATLCrew... are you sure about that?

    The area of prohibited flight is NOT where this aircraft crashed. The second NOTAM regarding risks regarding communications was in the general area, however would relate far more to low altitude aircraft.

    Haendli has the idea - what appears to have been missed by the various agencies doing the risk assessments has been that there were seriously powerful SAMs in the hands of unreliable groups. That is fairly unusual and is why flight over war zones is usually considered safe. Remember we've been flying over Afghanistan and Iraq for years - the weapons used by the rebels in these places have limited ceilings that don't pose a threat to high altitude aircraft.

    There will be a lot of agencies trying to cover their backsides in the next few days, from ICAO down to airlines' risk assessment departments. There's plenty of other major carriers that have been using that air route, and they'll be taking a pretty close look at the way the risk has been assessed!

    Leave a comment:


  • retox
    replied
    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
    and here is puta...er, putin's logic for supporting the separatists: "they speak the russian language so they have the right to be protected and given arms by mother russia."

    i almost wish he would try that bullshit with the god knows how many russian speaking people around the world.

    whata fuckin assfuck. here's praying there is a really special place in hell for fucktards like him.
    The extra-special part was when Putin called Obama directly this morning to say, "hey, look what I did bitch".

    And Obama was so upset that he actaully dedicated 2 whole sentences about it this morning before he got into his prepared jokes.

    I hate to make this about politics but when a commercial alirliner is plucked out of the sky and it's part of some dick dispute between these 2, it's kinda about politics.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ers-board.html

    Leave a comment:


  • ATLcrew
    replied
    Originally posted by ATFS_Crash
    2: It was probably foolish for the airlines to be conducting flights in what is essentially a war zone, especially so shortly after a military plane was allegedly shot down.
    US carriers are, in fact, prohibited from operating over the area by an FDC Notam issued back on 23 April. Read it here:

    http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...RAINE_SFAR.pdf

    EASA stopped short of issuing an outright prohibition, but issued a recommendation against operating in the area even earlier, back on 7 April.

    Leave a comment:


  • TeeVee
    replied
    and here is puta...er, putin's logic for supporting the separatists: "they speak the russian language so they have the right to be protected and given arms by mother russia."

    i almost wish he would try that bullshit with the god knows how many russian speaking people around the world.

    whata fuckin assfuck. here's praying there is a really special place in hell for fucktards like him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Haendli
    replied
    Restricted Airspace

    The Restriction of the FAA was only for possible bad fight controlers and russian and ucrainian Controlers giving different orders. And it was only for the Area that claimed itself indipendent fro the Ukraine so only the southern part was included in this area niot the eastern Area where it happend. In Crisis or "War Areas" the Airspace is only closed to the flightlevel that possible Anti Aircraft system can reach. Till Today most Airlines and Authorities thaugt this would be About 12000 feet. That a System that is capable up to 60000 feet got known to military and intelligence services some weeks ago and did not find there way to flight Authorities and Airlines.

    Greets Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Jpmkam View Post
    Immarsat is reported to have sent the Malaysian officials the ACARS data. What type of ACARS data would assist with determining the hit by a missile?
    Lots. There will be no "MISSILE HIT" ACARS message, but many different systems failing at the same time can point to a sudden catastrophic failure.

    Leave a comment:


  • retox
    replied
    Originally posted by sjwk View Post
    The BBC are quoting the Air Transport editor of Flight International as saying the ICAO had declared the route safe - if so, then Malaysia Airlines can't be entirely to blame.

    Perhaps the FAA banned the airlines that it has jurisdiction over from using that airspace because the pro-Russian rebels might be more likely to take pot shots at US planes than at those belonging to neutral countries.
    Here's the logic. As a father, it is 100% my responsibility to not put my family in danger regardless of what anyone, including the gov't, may declare "safe".

    Personal responsibility. Malaysian Air should try some.

    Leave a comment:

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