Malaysia T7 down!!

[Northwester]

Unreleased data from a black box retrieved from the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine show findings consistent with the plane's fuselage being hit multiple times by shrapnel from a missile explosion, CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips reports.

"It did what it was designed to do," a European air safety official told CBS News, "bring down airplanes."

The official described the finding as "massive explosive decompression."

[Northwester]

There are several facts about this crash that have been confirmed with a high degree of probability. The BUK M1 launchers came from Russia with trained crews. It is not likely that the so called "separatists" operated the BUKs. It takes several months of training to learn how to use them. Besides, intercepted radio traffic confirmed that the vehicles came with the crews. It is true that the launch vehicles came without the command and target acquiring radar vehicles so they did not have the capacity of determining if the target is friend or foe, but their command units could have been on the Russian side providing all necessary information. On the previous shootdowns, the air traffic controllers from Donbas were providing information to the separatists about the air traffic. It is possible that it was accidental, but it is equally possible that it was a deliberate action. The separatists got a warning 2 minutes before the missile launch that the "bird" was approaching. There were other airliners crossing that area shortly before, as well above 320 level. And Russian airspace border was closed several hours before the crash. The BUK M1s are equipped with decent tracking radars, so it is hard to believe that a professional crew would not distinguish an airliner flying at 33,000 feet from a smaller transport plane flying at the half of this altitude. But I am not discarding the possibility of an accident. There was a patrol dispatched minutes after the crash to catch Ukrainian pilots that supposedly parachuted from the plane.

I am attaching 2 screen shots from Russian air traffic monitoring from July 17, 13:19:02 showing MH17 at 330. And a pic with air traffic paths over Ukraine.

[Gabriel]

I agree with you that the breakup may have taken several seconds and that data may have been recorded.

Yes, may. Or may not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fNcGFNLPHE

(yes, yes, I know the differences)

[Highkeas]

The plane didn't pop like a balloon. This was a proximity explosion, apparently from the front. using concussive force and a cloud of shrapnel to destroy the plane. The initial detonation may well have rendered the crew unconscious (one hopes) and decompressed the hull. But I suspect the airframe failed over a period of time before the flight recorders lost function or became severed from the aircraft. I think there's a good chance that they will hear terrible things on the CVR and these must be kept out of the press. I also fear they will be made public for political porpose.

I agree with you that the breakup may have taken several seconds and that data may have been recorded.

[EconomyClass]

I'm sure you're right. On looking at it again it seems that what I thought was a similar colour scheme is actually the shaded rear cargo ramp doors of the Antonov. I only posted it because it was claimed to be the T7 shoot down. It just surprised me that no one had posted it before given how these threads generally run their course.

Thank God that the bodies have at last been returned, especially the Dutch ones. I watched the news casts of the motorcade of hearses. So sad to see the look of sadness and disbelief on the faces of the thousands who lined the roads to pay their respects.

May those lost finally rest in peace.

The rest of us must never forget them. All right thinking nations and their people must exert the maximum pressure to bring the perpetrators to justice. The airline, ATC control centres, western intelligence etc. they may have made errors ........ But the ones who pressed the button and/or those who ordered it are the murderers who must be brought to justice.
Please no one bring back the Iranian shot down by the US, the KAL shoot down by the Soviets etc. I am talking about THIS tragedy. None of what has gone before excuses or mitigates what happened to MH17.

Historical question: When have the parties responsible for shooting down civilian airlines ever been "brought to justice". Justice in this world is like Swiss cheese. More wrong is done without penalty than with penalty. That's why I think prevention is more important than action after the event. The malefactors are so slippery even in domestic cases. And when international law comes into play, it becomes extremely arbitrary. In some cases, seemingly civilized nations give SANCTUARY to the worst people. If I remember this, it is in the category of "how can intelligent people assure it doesn't happen?" The simpleton's answer is effective diversion of planes from any vicinity where idiots with passions ruling their actions can think a plane shot from the sky is a "victory".

[Gabriel]

The plane didn't pop like a balloon. This was a proximity explosion, apparently from the front. using concussive force and a cloud of shrapnel to destroy the plane. The initial detonation may well have rendered the crew unconscious (one hopes) and decompressed the hull. But I suspect the airframe failed over a period of time before the flight recorders lost function or became severed from the aircraft. I think there's a good chance that they will hear terrible things on the CVR and these must be kept out of the press. I also fear they will be made public for political porpose.

Maybe. But I suspect that there was a very early in-flight breakup, for example caused by critical part of the structure failing due to the shockwave and explosive decompression. There were photos of what looked big chunks of fuselage with the skin bent outwards all along the perimeter. And there were reports of bodies, luggage and other elements scattered over a very wide area of several kilometers.

As you said, this could be the result of a later failure due to aerodynamic stress during a subsequent out of control fall. But the plane being destroyed up there with the missile detonation would not be a "strange" outcome either, IMHO.

[Jpmkam]

Valid information obtained from MH17 flight-data recorder

Investigators have downloaded information from the flight-data recorder of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER that crashed in eastern Ukraine.

While the recorder was "slightly" damaged, says the Dutch Safety Board, its memory unit was intact.

"Furthermore, no evidence or indications of manipulation of the recorder was found," it adds.

Its information has been downloaded and the inquiry says it contains "valid" data from flight MH17. This information will be combined with that from the cockpit-voice recorder, data from which was retrieved on 23 July.

Specialists from the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch are conducting the examination of the recorders on behalf of the Dutch Safety Board.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/valid-information-obtained-from-mh17-flight-data-recorder-401993/

[brianw999]

I read reports saying they had estimated only 200 of the 298 bodies were aboard those trains, have they since recovered all if not more of them? It seems like the separatists have made full recovery very difficult, given that they seem to have been doing the work themselves and are not at all properly trained for it.

There is also another consideration that means that not all bodies will be found. Those seated over the fuel tanks and in the vicinity of the engines would be liable to atomisation/incineration. Not a pleasant thing to think about but it would have been a quick death.

[Leftseat86]

Thank God that the bodies have at last been returned, especially the Dutch ones. I watched the news casts of the motorcade of hearses. So sad to see the look of sadness and disbelief on the faces of the thousands who lined the roads to pay their respects.

I read reports saying they had estimated only 200 of the 298 bodies were aboard those trains, have they since recovered all if not more of them? It seems like the separatists have made full recovery very difficult, given that they seem to have been doing the work themselves and are not at all properly trained for it.

[Evan]

I don't think so. The transponder (and I think ACARS too) stopped transmitting with the plane smoothly flying straight and level at cruise altitude.

That means that the transponder stopped transmitting at the moment of the explosion, and likely the CVR and FDR stopped recording at that moment too.

The plane didn't pop like a balloon. This was a proximity explosion, apparently from the front. using concussive force and a cloud of shrapnel to destroy the plane. The initial detonation may well have rendered the crew unconscious (one hopes) and decompressed the hull. But I suspect the airframe failed over a period of time before the flight recorders lost function or became severed from the aircraft. I think there's a good chance that they will hear terrible things on the CVR and these must be kept out of the press. I also fear they will be made public for political porpose.

[brianw999]

I'm sure you're right. On looking at it again it seems that what I thought was a similar colour scheme is actually the shaded rear cargo ramp doors of the Antonov. I only posted it because it was claimed to be the T7 shoot down. It just surprised me that no one had posted it before given how these threads generally run their course.

Thank God that the bodies have at last been returned, especially the Dutch ones. I watched the news casts of the motorcade of hearses. So sad to see the look of sadness and disbelief on the faces of the thousands who lined the roads to pay their respects.

May those lost finally rest in peace.

The rest of us must never forget them. All right thinking nations and their people must exert the maximum pressure to bring the perpetrators to justice. The airline, ATC control centres, western intelligence etc. they may have made errors ........ But the ones who pressed the button and/or those who ordered it are the murderers who must be brought to justice.
Please no one bring back the Iranian shot down by the US, the KAL shoot down by the Soviets etc. I am talking about THIS tragedy. None of what has gone before excuses or mitigates what happened to MH17.

[Alex - Spot-This !]

Brian, that's the video of the An-26 shooting early that same week I think

[LX-A343]

Yep, that's never a T7.

[mfeldt]

That's not MH17.

The sky wasn't blue and the plane ist not a T7.

[brianw999]

I'm not so sure about that!

From the wreckage photos, I suspect pretty much the entire plane was very quickly disassembled in midair (at FL330 and x-hundred knots, no less). In that case I'd imagine both the power and audio wiring to the CVR would be severed, yielding either no recording or silence.

I'm surprised that no one seems to have linked to this video unless I missed it. It reputedly shows MH17 coming down in flames but essentially in one piece with the right engine/wing on fire. I use the word REPUTEDLY as we've already had someone claiming on Facebook that the Bagram B747 freighter crash was MH17. The video is poor here but it certainly looks like a large twin engined civilian aircraft and the colour scheme looks about right from this view angle. The initial black screen changes at 17 seconds.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F-D6OtFrz_8