Malaysia T7 down!!

[tsv]

And what precisely do you base that all-encompassing little gem of a quote on ?

US Rangers, Marine Corps, Navy Seals, UK SAS, SBS, Marines and Paras, French Foreign Legion, even for that matter the Russian Spetznas to name but a few....... The best trained and equipped military operatives in the world....none of which you would want to piss off without risking ownership of your allotted 6 feet of ground.

Yes as others have noted I was referring to the shooting down of Iran Air IR451.

Evan seems to be suggesting that anyone who accidentally shoots down an Airliner with a Missile is a "total fucking untrained idiot".

I'm not particularly disagreeing with him but to be fair you would have to say the same description applies to the US Navy who accidentally shot down Iran Air Flight IR451 on 3rd July 1998.

They then cemented their special moment in history by denying it was them and hiding their head in the sand like a bunch of Cowards - exactly the same as the people who shot down MH17 are doing.

Ukraine itself also shot down a TU154 en-route from TLV to OVB on 4/10/01. They at least admitted it (well almost) by saying "it was probably shot down by an errant missile of our armed forces". Source Wikipedia.

[Jpmkam]

Two missiles missing according to BBC news.

I think I see three still on that Buk launcher, regardless once it's back in Russia it will be disposed of quickly.

[TheKiecker]

I think I see three still on that Buk launcher, regardless once it's back in Russia it will be disposed of quickly.

When I drive around in my Buk launcher , I always make sure I got all 6 . Chicks dig it .

[Jpmkam]

When I drive around in my Buk launcher , I always make sure I got all 6 . Chicks dig it .

Six?

[James Bond]

Very naughty

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10977082/Russian-government-edits-Wikipedia-on-flight-MH17.html

[AVION1]

Very naughty

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...ight-MH17.html

Yes, anyone can "edit" anything in Wikipedia.

[HalcyonDays]

Well, ATFS certainly adds to the gaiety of the nation and the world. It's good that we're all different. He's right but for the wrong reasons.

There's too much anti-Russian hysteria, both on here and everywhere. Yes, probably pro-Russian "rebels" were responsible for this atrocity. But the west deserves a lot of the blame, ultimately. The current Ukrainian government exists only because it took power in a coup earlier this year after ousting a democratically elected government. And in this it was supported and facilitated by western governments.

The current Ukrainian government has been widely credited with shooting its own people in recent weeks in the name of defeating the rebels. There are some very nasty quasi-Nazi elements in the Ukrainian administration. Ukrainians as it happens shot down a Russian airliner in 2001, by mistake. If the Europeans really want Ukraine to be part of the EU, they need to be consistent. It's a dire mess in eastern Ukraine now, but the Ukrainians are just as bad as the Russians. And the west bears a lot of the responsibility for where we are today, and primarily the US.

[tsv]

Take your own advice. Stop playing politics. You are being disrespectful to those that died in this tragedy. They shouldn't be cheated justice, because you and your type want to play political games of partisan censorship.

When conservatives are being criticized, hypocritically there is no effort to rein it in on this forum. Yet when liberals are criticized; whiners like you on the forum have a hypocritical hissy fit. You wussies like to dish it out, but can't handle it.

The fact is Obama's and Liberal's policies have contributed to this tragedy. Putin, North Koreans, Iranians, Muslims, Chinese and terrorists are all increasingly vying for power because Obama and other liberals have been so impotent and incompetence at foreign-policy. Obama's and Liberal's policies are making America weak and we are failing as a superpower as others are rising. Obama's and Liberal's are destroying this country, so it's natural that others will exploit our weaknesses.

Obama's and Liberal's policies are turning our victories in Iraq and Afghanistan to defeats. Ironically Iraqi WMDs that liberals claim didn't exist when Bush was in office, is now being touted as possibly falling into the hands of Al Qaeda affiliates in Iraq. Ironically the Obama administration and liberals supported be Syrian Al Qaeda affiliates that are now threatening Iraq.

Putin (Russians) have been having a proxy wars in the Ukraine. The Obama administration and liberals have been having their proxy wars in the Middle East. Obama and liberals are largely allying themselves that strive for the destruction of America and Israel.

Stop whining. Man up. Face the consequences. Obama and liberals own this mess. Putin and others would not be trying stuff like this if it wasn't for the weakness, complacency and incompetence by the Obama administration and liberals. Obama and terrorist suck ups own this mess. Obama is the worst president in history.

The way to show respect to the people that died in this tragedy, is to tell the truth. Squelching criticism of Obama's and liberal's epic failures on international policy would be cheating justice for those that died in this tragic event.

So how exactly would you "Man Up" to Russia? US & Europe are already hitting them with all sorts of Sanctions and even more will likely follow after this.

Would you liberate Russia like you liberated Iran and Afghanistan?

If I understand one thing about Putin it is that he is determined not to be dictated to by the US no matter what. I don't believe the US thought through the consequences of this fact before they got involved in their usual regime change tactics in the Ukraine. Well they got their regime change, now let's see what the consequences will be.

[retox]

The current Ukrainian government exists only because it took power in a coup earlier this year after ousting a democratically elected government.

"Democratically elected" Viktor Yanukovych? In Putin Russia, ballot does voting for you.

He needed to go. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...il-saakashvili

[3WE]

...in that instance, the Navy WERE an example of totally fucking untrained idiots...

Given that in other instances that we allowed suicide bombers to blow up our stuff and kill our people, I object to this and the other "totally" absolute statement. You don't have a lot of time to make a right or wrong decision.

Indeed mistakes were made, but war (and military tension) sucks and humans screw up.

And in spite of all the finger pointing going on, I'm afraid it was some poor Bubbainsky (and Wodka?) who had him a military plane and made a damn mistake just like we did when the Iranians were attacking our ship.

I'm still wondering why in the hell folks were flying near the place- just because it's too darn easy to shoot down a plane.

[retox]

If I understand one thing about Putin it is that he is determined not to be dictated to by the US no matter what.

Agreed. He is also determined to take advantage of weakness. This is a problem years in the making and can not be solved overnight. Here's a pretty fair analysis of why we're here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10976498/Flight-MH17-and-the-new-world-disorder.html

And it keeps going:

AP - Obamas to spend rare weekend at Camp David retreat

"President Barack Obama is foregoing his usual round of weekend golf at a Washington suburban military base. Instead, he and his family are choosing what is for them a rare woodland getaway: a weekend at Camp David... ...The escape from the White House caps a fierce week of foreign policy eruptions, highlighted by a downed commercial jet liner over Ukraine and Israel's ground offensive into Gaza, as well as maneuvers over how to address a surge of Central American migrants at the U.S. border. Camp David is an unusual destination for Obama... ...The trip will be his 33rd visit to Camp David..."

Rare? 33 times in 6 years is rare?

Putin run amok.

And now this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...iran-deal.html

[Jpmkam]

Can we leave politics out for another thread...

[Evan]

Yes, in that instance, the Navy WERE an example of totally fucking untrained idiots.

Not exactly. They were highly trained for military engagements. Their training did not adequately prepare them for a scenario in which a blue water AEGIS cruiser is operating in a area as tight as the Straits of Hormuz under the command of a screwball captain using it to pursue and fire upon gunboats in Iranian territorial waters. This was not long after the USS Stark had been hit in the gulf. It's hard to imagine a more tense situation for the crew that day.

THe important distinction here is that the VIncennes was firing in perceived self-defense, whereas whoever shot down the Malaysian jet was just out for blood.

[James Bond]

Can we leave politics out for another thread...

[tsv]

Not exactly. They were highly trained for military engagements. Their training did not adequately prepare them for a scenario in which a blue water AEGIS cruiser is operating in a area as tight as the Straits of Hormuz under the command of a screwball captain using it to pursue and fire upon gunboats in Iranian territorial waters. This was not long after the USS Stark had been hit in the gulf. It's hard to imagine a more tense situation for the crew that day.

THe important distinction here is that the VIncennes was firing in perceived self-defense, whereas whoever shot down the Malaysian jet was just out for blood.

Don't buy the bit about their being a distinction. The Vincennes didn't exactly have a desperate need to be permanently lurking off the Iranian Coast, there was no War between the US & Iran and the US was never under threat from Iranian weapons.

The US navy did (and probably still does) regularly cross in and out of Iranian waters. If there was tension in the area at the time then the US was definitely a prime contributor to that tension. I can't imagine the US would tolerate a heavily armed Battle Group permanently hovering off the US Coastline and even crossing into their territorial waters.

If you are going to station yourself off another Countries' Coast Line with extremely destructive Surface to Air Missiles you better have a water tight system of determining which Aircraft in the Area are Military and which are Civilian. If you don't you shouldn't be there.

Re MH17 the Ukraine separatists are in a Civil war with the Ukrainian Army. Whether you or I believe there should be a War or not is irrelevant - the fact is they are at war and it is a Soldiers job to shoot the enemy before they are themselves shot. It's kind of the idea of war to spill your enemies blood before he spills yours so I guess you could say they were "out for blood".

Of course Warring Parties do have responsibilities under the Geneva Convention not to hurt innocent parties etc. But in any War there is "Collateral Damage", to borrow that lovely US expression, and nobody has inflicted more Collateral Damage in the last 50 years than the US.

I can't agree that the Vincennes incident was any more justifiable or excusable than MH17.