there are reports that several commercial passenger aircraft crossed the restricted airspace in East Ukraine at or below FL320 before MH17 entered it at FL330. I don't know how to easily find this info for the few days before the 17th, perhaps also for the 17th itself. Preciate it if someone could let me know.
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Originally posted by ATFS_CrashYou're on a rant, because you didn't read properly. You're taking my words out of context.
I was saying hypocritical wussies like Evan should man up. The forum has a long track record of a double standard. The wussies hypocritically play politics; criticism and slander of conservatism is tolerated and encouraged; yet hypocritically when there is justified criticism of Obama or liberalism they show they are wussies by throwing temper tantrums, going on tirades, demand censorship, making unfounded personal attacks, etc.
Instead of being whining hypocrites; they should man up and accept the fact that their politics contributed to this tragedy. Not that I expect them to man up. There are likely to be mama's girls for all their lives.
Example:
Jpmkam is a lying wussy. If he would man up, he would admit that politics are on-topic. Politics, terrorism and war are causal factors to the airline being shot down. Related politics, terrorism and war in "on topic" as causal factors.
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Originally posted by ATFS_CrashJpmkam is a lying wussy. If he would man up, he would admit that politics are on-topic. Politics, terrorism and war are causal factors to the airline being shot down. Related politics, terrorism and war are "on topic" as causal factors.
The facts as they are known at the moment by the West are....
1. Putins regime supplied the missiles.
2. Russian separatists DELIBERATELY fired the missile/s in order to shoot down what they KNEW was a civilian aircraft. They INTENDED TO DO IT. This is the difference between the Iranian shoot down by the USN and this Ukrainian incident. The US Navy did not INTEND to shoot down a civilian aircraft.
3. Because of the intent in this latest act this makes the separatist leadership, commanders, call them what you will and Putin by association as the supplier of the weapons, complicit in a war crime. As such they should be taken to The Hague and charged with this crime. Now, getting Putin to The Hague isn't going to happen but you can bet your boots that he'll offer up some sacrificial goats. Failing that there is a good chance that gunshots will be heard in some remote forest signalling the end of those involved in this war crime.
The voices of 295 dead innocents MUST be heard.If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
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So, here's my take on this. I think that this tragedy is plain and simple a mistake by whoever operated that missile launcher. Looking at it in my - admittedly amateurish - criminalistic way, there is a lack of motive in all three parties that are involved in this.
a) The Ukrainian government most definitely wouldn't have anything to gain from shooting down any plane in that area.
b) At this moment, Wladimir Putin is probably hopping mad at the "pro-Russian" separatists, because shooting down a passenger airliner does not at all help his (or their) cause, and makes it almost impossible to give the Russian separatists his support. At the moment it looks like he can't control what is going on, and he sure doesn't like looking like an idiot.
c) The separatists can't very well admit they made a mistake because that will make them look weak.
As for the responsibility of Malaysia Airlines, sure - they could have chosen another route. But while other airlines did that, many others didn't. There was no requirement and no official warning from ICAO and IATA. I don't see choosing this route as a cost-cutting measure on their part. They were just in wrong place at the wrong time... like so many other "collateral" victims before them.
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Originally posted by orangehuggy View Postthere are reports that several commercial passenger aircraft crossed the restricted airspace in East Ukraine at or below FL320 before MH17 entered it at FL330. I don't know how to easily find this info for the few days before the 17th, perhaps also for the 17th itself. Preciate it if someone could let me know.
This might be a good time to mention that posts that are made here and subsequently taken down by their authors can still be read by the admins.If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
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Here's a link everbody on here should read:
In July 2014, a Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. What do we know about what happened to flight MH17?
Especially the part about the other airlines using a similar route (including such minor players as Singapore Airlines, Virgin Atlantic and Lufthansa). Maybe this will stop the Malaysia Airlines-bashing a little bit. Can't help it, but I have always had a place in my heart for this airline and they have always treated me well.
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Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View PostBrian, do we really know that the separatists KNEW what they were shooting at?
Some numb nuts country yokel fires a sophisticated missile up there. There's only one thing he's going to hit. Someone usurped their authority basically because they were in an "I've got a new toy and I want to use it NOW !" scenario and fired off a missile. Recordings of conversations released since the war crime was committed seem to show that the separatists knew what they were doing.If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
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Originally posted by brianw999 View PostThat statement is out of order. All he asked for was for this forum to back away from all the political hatred and spin doctoring that is going on. What has he lied about. An apology is expected.
The facts as they are known at the moment by the West are....
1. Putins regime supplied the missiles.
2. Russian separatists DELIBERATELY fired the missile/s in order to shoot down what they KNEW was a civilian aircraft. They INTENDED TO DO IT. This is the difference between the Iranian shoot down by the USN and this Ukrainian incident. The US Navy did not INTEND to shoot down a civilian aircraft.
3. Because of the intent in this latest act this makes the separatist leadership, commanders, call them what you will and Putin by association as the supplier of the weapons, complicit in a war crime. As such they should be taken to The Hague and charged with this crime. Now, getting Putin to The Hague isn't going to happen but you can bet your boots that he'll offer up some sacrificial goats. Failing that there is a good chance that gunshots will be heard in some remote forest signalling the end of those involved in this war crime.
The voices of 295 dead innocents MUST be heard.
Firstly it has not been established that Putin supplied the Missiles. The Ukraine also has these missiles and the Separatists have captured some Ukrainian Weapons during the fighting. It could well be, and in fact has been suggested in numerous media reports, that the Separatists acquired them from the Ukrainian Army. It is not even known who fired the missile, while it most likely was the Separatists it could also have been the Ukrainian Army or the Russian Army, both of whom are on high alert and both of whom have mistakenly shot down Airliners with Missiles before.
Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence that anybody was deliberately trying to shoot down a Civilian Airliner and to the contrary it is all but certain that they didn't intend to do this. The Separatists were hunting for Ukrainian Air Force Aircraft not Civilian Airliners and they had managed to shoot a few of these down in recent days. Even the audio tape the Ukrainians released that was purportedly intercepted communication from the Rebels clearly shows they thought they had hit a Military plane and were looking for Pilots who may have bailed out by Parachute. Not many 777 Pilots wear Parachutes!
If it was either of the regular Armies again it would also have a been a case of mistaken identity because it was in nobody's interest to deliberately down an Airliner and this is simply not what happened.
A 777 may look a lot different from an IL-76/AN26 close up but if it's cruising at 32 000 feet and spotted from who knows how many km away it could look like anything - or nothing in particular. They might have even been using radar screens to track it for all we know which would give them even less of an idea about what it was. And as I have tried to point out in this thread previously, if the US Navy can't identify what it is shooting at it is hardly surprising an irregular army which entered a war 2 months ago had the same problem.
Whoever fired this missile was incompetent and grossly negligent (the same as others who have made the same mistake). But I don't believe for a second there was any intention to hit MH17 and I severely doubt anybody will ever face War Crime charges. At least I can't recall anybody getting charged for War Crimes when there is collateral damage during a War. That sort of charge is more for deliberate murders like in Bosnia or Nazi's involved in Hitler's Gas Camps.
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Originally posted by tsv View PostSorry Brian but these are nowhere near the facts at all.
Firstly it has not been established that Putin supplied the Missiles. The Ukraine also has these missiles and the Separatists have captured some Ukrainian Weapons during the fighting. It could well be, and in fact has been suggested in numerous media reports, that the Separatists acquired them from the Ukrainian Army. It is not even known who fired the missile, while it most likely was the Separatists it could also have been the Ukrainian Army or the Russian Army, both of whom are on high alert and both of whom have mistakenly shot down Airliners with Missiles before.
Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence that anybody was deliberately trying to shoot down a Civilian Airliner and to the contrary it is all but certain that they didn't intend to do this. The Separatists were hunting for Ukrainian Air Force Aircraft not Civilian Airliners and they had managed to shoot a few of these down in recent days. Even the audio tape the Ukrainians released that was purportedly intercepted communication from the Rebels clearly shows they thought they had hit a Military plane and were looking for Pilots who may have bailed out by Parachute. Not many 777 Pilots wear Parachutes!
If it was either of the regular Armies again it would also have a been a case of mistaken identity because it was in nobody's interest to deliberately down an Airliner and this is simply not what happened.
A 777 may look a lot different from an IL-76/AN26 close up but if it's cruising at 32 000 feet and spotted from who knows how many km away it could look like anything - or nothing in particular. They might have even been using radar screens to track it for all we know which would give them even less of an idea about what it was. And as I have tried to point out in this thread previously, if the US Navy can't identify what it is shooting at it is hardly surprising an irregular army which entered a war 2 months ago had the same problem.
Whoever fired this missile was incompetent and grossly negligent (the same as others who have made the same mistake). But I don't believe for a second there was any intention to hit MH17 and I severely doubt anybody will ever face War Crime charges. At least I can't recall anybody getting charged for War Crimes when there is collateral damage during a War. That sort of charge is more for deliberate murders like in Bosnia or Nazi's involved in Hitler's Gas Camps.
One thing to be said for your post TSV.....it is probably one of the most reasonably written posts on this thread. Let's keep this on topic from now on. Yes, there is a degree of political comment that is appropriate here, and TSV has nailed how to do that but that does not extend to some of the tin foil hat attacks that have appeared here. Moderation will be used from now on if necessary.Last edited by brianw999; 2014-07-19, 10:10.If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !
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Today, the BBC are saying (citing Ukrainian sources admittedly) that the rebels have prevented investigators from accessing the site, and that they are trying to transport the wreckage to Russia.
Ukraine accuses pro-Russian rebels at the crash site of Malaysian airliner MH17 of trying to destroy evidence of "international crimes".
Also:
Kiev says it has proof that missile launchers with Russian crews crossed into Ukraine as fears mount that rebels are destroying evidence and removing bodies from the crash site
which says that investigators have been allowed in but aren't allowed to take anything, that rebel fighters are taking anything away found, including remains.
If this is all true, then the site has surely been compromised and it's going to make things many times harder for those investigating?
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Originally posted by brianw999 View PostOne thing to be said for your post TSV.....it is probably one of the most reasonably written posts on this thread. Let's keep this on topic from now on. Yes, there is a degree of political comment that is appropriate here, and TSV has nailed how to do that but that does not extend to some of the tin foil hat attacks that have appeared here. Moderation will be used from now on if necessary.
I sense we have different perspectives on this, at least at the Political level, but there is no doubt we agree it is a very sad and tragic event. Nobody involved in this War or this shooting down has gained gained anything, much has been lost and yet more is at stake.
I wish for a speedy end to the War and a fair Investigation into the Shooting Down of MH17 but am not optimistic about either. It seems the Investigators are not getting unrestricted access to the site which suggests Politics is again getting in the way.
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Originally posted by brianw999 View PostThe aircraft, a large twin engined jet that does not bear any resemblance to any military aircraft operated by the Ukraine was flying at FL 330 in a very well known civil aviation air corridor, complying with Ukrainian ATC flight instructions along with other airlines doing the same thing.
Some numb nuts country yokel fires a sophisticated missile up there. There's only one thing he's going to hit. Someone usurped their authority basically because they were in an "I've got a new toy and I want to use it NOW !" scenario and fired off a missile. Recordings of conversations released since the war crime was committed seem to show that the separatists knew what they were doing.
I also jumped the gun back there and assumed the AA system came from Russia. It now appears that it was siezed by the rebels from Ukraine forces. But this only makes it more dangerous. If the Russians had supplied it they would have also supplied the crew trained to operate it. A big part of that training is target acquisition and identification. A gang of yokels is not going to have a clue how to distinguish targets.
Which brings up some key questions: is it reasonable that the rebels could know how to target and launch such a complex system without Russian advisors? Or were these seperatists trained ex-Ukranian military personnel and familiar with the system? Or is it fairly simple to launch but complex to target? Or can the system be confgured to self launch upon detecting a target? In any case, I feel pretty confident they were not intentionally targeting a foriegn civilian aircraft that posed no threat, especially when downing it would only destroy support for their cause.
Whatever the case, the fact that the launcher came from Ukraine does not absolve Russia in the least. They (Putin really) instigated this violence as part of their proxy war against the west and in so doing destabilized the region and caused a large number of lethal weapons to fall into unsecure hands.
If you leave a loaded pistol on the kitchen table and it falls into the hands of a five year old and he shoots his brother with it, it's not the five year old who is at fault.
Originally posted by sjwkIf this is all true, then the site has surely been compromised and it's going to make things many times harder for those investigating?
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As to the question of "did they know it was a commercial plane". Here's an excellent piece on how the BUK is perfectly designed to mistake the two. Just add drunk Russians.
Further, they claimed to have shot down a military transport at the same time.
And don't forget the intercepted conversations the rebels had in the aftermath. They clearly were pissed that it was civilian even stating , "fuck them, they shouldn't fucking be flying here,this is a awr zone, they must be spys."
This was not deliberate. Unless, of course you believe the other side (Ukraine or US did it for political gain). Not a conspiracy nut - that is what Russian media is reporting.
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