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Seat Recline Wars and airline stupidity

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  • Seat Recline Wars and airline stupidity

    WTF is happening? three stupid spats between pax and three commercial jets divert and waste God knows how much money in fuel for what? a couple of idiots that throw water at each and curse? seriously???

    since takeoff and landing are the two most "dangerous" regimes of flying, it kinda pisses me off that asshat captains are risking lives over such idiocy. not to mention missed connections, inconvenience and general bullshit.

    let the idiots duke it out or piss off enough other pax to slap the living shit out of them and end it the old fashioned way. if that shit happens on one of my flights, y'all will be reading about me slapping someone silly.

    we've already become a society of pansies.

  • #2
    ...or simply make an announcement at the beginning of each flight that the use of seat reclining is permitted except for take off and landing or when otherwise instructed by the cabin crew. Harassing the person in front of you is a violation of FAA rules and subject to prosecution. Just say that.

    The problem is that a lot of people don't know what the rules are.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
      WTF is happening? Three stupid spats between pax and three commercial jets divert and waste God knows how much money in fuel for what? a couple of idiots that throw water at each and curse? Seriously! Since takeoff and landing are the two most "dangerous" regimes of flying, it kinda pisses me off that asshat captains are risking lives over such idiocy. not to mention missed connections, inconvenience and general bullshit.
      So, the decision to land should be made by passengers, not say the crew of an aircraft whose sole job it is to maintain the security of an aircraft. An extension of that standard would allow passengers to determine who and who is not a threat, who and who is not a nuisance, who and who should not be allowed to fly. If you wish to be ruled by the mob mentality - then so be it. There are likely more passengers who are asking for the aircraft to land, if only to ensure their individual safeties.

      Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
      let the idiots duke it out or piss off enough other pax to slap the living shit out of them and end it the old fashioned way. if that shit happens on one of my flights, y'all will be reading about me slapping someone silly.


      We've already become a society of pansies.
      http://www.nfps.info/news-1/man-who-...ily-restrained

      If you slapping hand is as hard as your rants, then we will be should start replacing the emergency slides with body bags. There are people trained to assess, and handle situtations like this. Namely, flight crew and law enforcement authorities (well, a few of them anyway) - not civilians fighting in a metal tube travelling hundreds of miles an hour soaring miles in the sky. We are not pansies, but a nation that has seen aviation disasters develop and occur.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific...es_Flight_1771

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific...nes_Flight_773

      It only takes one idiot...

      Now, I can see fault in the airlines, and regulatory bodies in not outright banning the devices. They are a nuisance, and I am sure that we can come up with a safety reason as to how they might impact passengers in an emergency. The airlines have sat on this for far too long - with either passive resistance or no enforcement at all. These diversions are costly, and I believe that the cost of said diversions should be charged to the passenger responsible. Perhaps then, we will see people think about their idiocy, or pay for it.
      Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Whoops...I commented on the airlines silence over in the other forum- didn't see a safety issue, but I knew TV might want to comment.

        Yep the airlines 'silence' is interesting along with these knew locking thingies passengers can buy.

        Of course, seat pitch doesn't have any influence.... NOT!
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #5
          Maybe it would help if the airlines didn't try to shoehorn passengers into seats too small for the human body. Tempers are already high after having to run the TSA gratuitous harassment gauntlet.

          Flying used to be fun. Now it's sheer misery.

          Comment


          • #6
            If we are sitting in a typical cattle-class configuration, you are in the seat immediately in front of mine, and you want to recline it, you will have problems because I will not allow it. And it doesn't matter whether there is a regulation, law or constitutional clause giving you the right to recline your seat back and mandating that I should allow it. It doesn't even matter whether I want or will let you recline your seat back. My femurs don't understand those legal matters and are neither telescopic nor compressible.

            Gabriel
            6' 4"

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, here's an irony. Mr TeeVee lambasts Spirit Airlines for its alleged horrific service. And yet Spirit Airlines has no reclining seats at all, so at least they don't have the problem and wouldn't need to divert for this problem. I recommend he travels Spirit and lowers his blood pressure.

              Comment


              • #8
                Simple answer. Disable all reclining seats in cattle class. The amount of recline is neglible anyway and I'm sick of having the TV screen in my face and my knees (arthritic and therefore painful) crushed by the seatback. When the seat in front of me gets reclined the problem gets compounded because I then have to recline mine to regain my comfort level thus potentially upsetting the person behind me.
                That of course won't happen because the airlines use this small amount of recline as a selling point.
                All this is one of the reasons why I choose airlines where I can preselect a seat. I go for a bulkhead seat or exit seat where there isn't anyone in front of me. You generally get a bit more legroom as well.

                I find it incredible how people seem to lose any comprehension of good manners when they get on aircraft.
                Examples are leaning on the headrest of a seat while waiting to use the toilet, clambering over peoples legs in the bulkhead seats when they should go to the next cross access, talking loudly in groups when others are trying to rest/sleep, refusing to raise the seatback during a meal and becoming threatening when reasonably asked to not do something that interferes with another passengers basic comfort.
                The answer is to not deal with a problem yourself. Inform the cabin crew who are then duty bound to enforce the airlines rules and requirements. Disobeying or ignoring cabin crew leads to arrest and a court appearance. If it's in America it's not unusual to lead to deportation for a foreigner and or some jail time.

                TeeVee talks about himself "slapping someone silly" ! Not a good plan. Anyone trying that with me will serve several years jail time. That's after I get in my one punch of self defence ! Violence on an aircraft is taken far more seriously by the courts than violence on the street. Then again, it's unlikely to happen to me because I try to be reasonable with others.
                Last edited by brianw999; 2014-09-03, 10:00.
                If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                  Simple answer. Disable all reclining seats in cattle class..........
                  Nice rant, but theres some really big problems:

                  1. The airlines are being rather silent on this.

                  2. The seats recline. (Keep thinking about this one)

                  3. Traditionally a lot- repeating a lot of folks recline during cruise....

                  But suddenly tradition is a problem.... Probably the desire to use a laptop or a screen in the seat....and maybe we finally used up the last 0.25" of seat pitch...

                  As long as the seats CAN recline and the airlines don't address this, some chaos will occur with the new paradigm that a seat that can recline violates someone else's rights.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    If we are sitting in a typical cattle-class configuration, you are in the seat immediately in front of mine, and you want to recline it, you will have problems because I will not allow it. And it doesn't matter whether there is a regulation, law or constitutional clause giving you the right to recline your seat back and mandating that I should allow it. It doesn't even matter whether I want or will let you recline your seat back. My femurs don't understand those legal matters and are neither telescopic nor compressible.

                    Gabriel
                    6' 4"
                    For what it's worth Gabriel, if I could snap my fingers and be 6'4", I would gladly pay extra for a bulkhead or exit row seat. But if you are ever seated behind me and pointed out that my seat recline is crowding your knees I would of course refrain from reclining the seat. All of these incidents lately involve adults who are little more than selfish children with none of the social skills you need to be an adult in modern society. America is full of such people, and many of them are happily overweight as well.

                    The Knee Defender device was, according to the inventor, not designed to prevent the person in front of you from reclining but rather to give you warning so that the seat back is not suddenly slammed into your knees. The implication is that you have to then remove the device.

                    But airline seat reclining is a domino effect. If the person in front of me reclines their seat, I recline mine. Then I once again have the same space in front of me. Of course, this does not help if your knees are affected. But If I don't recline then I am the losing domino, so by asking the person in front of you not to recline you are asking them to suffer for your problem and many people, especially in America, find that 'shared-suffering' concept to be outrageous.

                    Airlines continue to live in denial. I love this quote from the LA TImes:

                    The airline industry makes no apologies. Travelers who want more room can simply pay for roomier seats, said Jean Medina, a spokeswoman for Airlines for America, a trade group for the nation's largest carriers.
                    "Planes are more full, a reflection of the fact that flying remains affordable," she said. "Fuller flights in turn help keep flying more affordable."
                    That's rich. Fuller flights keep flying more profitable. Empty seats keep the prices down. Do they really think we don't understand basic supply-side economics?

                    The greatest insult, however, is when the airlines choose to install 'thin-line' seats, and then, instead of providing more legroom in cattle-class, they add a row of seats to business class.

                    Here is the reality of the times we live in. The growing divide between classes means you better be on the upper class side or you will be treated like peasantry. At least until some sort of regulation makes it back into the industry... Ironically, the first populist revolutions were brought about by religious oppression while the next one might be triggered by frequent flyers. If I were running for President in the USA, I would promise to pass a bill guaranteeing everyone the right to 34" of legroom. You would win both parties.

                    For now, 21st century coach-class jet travel is the new Greyhound bus.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      wow! what a bunch of all over the place replies. i wont bother addressing them one line at a time, but clearly some of you missed the point. never, i repeat NEVER, has any aircraft been in danger because people throwing water or even getting into a fist fight. that is a load of shit.

                      mob mentality? hardly. were the guys on the 9/11 united flight using mob mentality when they fought back? tell that to their families.

                      the airlines are silent because their brilliance has caused these problems. "let's save money by squeezing everyone then waste it by lading when they get upset and curse each other out.

                      i could give a shit less what spirit does or doesn't do. they suck and everyone knows it. thankfully, i have enough money so that i do not EVER have to consider flying them. that's not to say that i'm rich or like to pay grossly inflated fares. but at the end of the day, when you add up all of spirit's fees and charges the price difference for a human being flying with a carry on and one checked bag is very close to the legacy fares.

                      lastly, AA1818, your posts are usually relevant. murder-suicides by pax? get real.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Now you see why I fly cargo flights only and call in sick if they assign me a pax flight. Boxes don't bitch!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                          never, i repeat NEVER, has any aircraft been in danger because people throwing water or even getting into a fist fight.
                          The aircraft itself probably not, but the people thereon would be in danger, if a fight were to develop. Are you suggesting essentially that it's safer to land with an airplane full of bloodied up passengers, as long as an unscheduled landing wasn't made?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                            Nice rant, but theres some really big problems:

                            1. The airlines are being rather silent on this.

                            2. The seats recline. (Keep thinking about this one)

                            3. Traditionally a lot- repeating a lot of folks recline during cruise....

                            But suddenly tradition is a problem.... Probably the desire to use a laptop or a screen in the seat....and maybe we finally used up the last 0.25" of seat pitch...

                            As long as the seats CAN recline and the airlines don't address this, some chaos will occur with the new paradigm that a seat that can recline violates someone else's rights.
                            Yes, that was a tongue in cheek rant. The airlines are never going to do that. Yes, people recline their seats and yes, you get the "Domino" effect as each person in turn reclines their seat to compensate until you get to the poor bastard at the back who has a limited recline seat. (Tongue back in cheek...keep thinking about that one. That person doesn't get a cheaper fare for the reduced legroom do they?) Then theres the even poorer bastard in the row in front of the over wing emergency exit. They don't get ANY recline at all because it will impede access to the emergency exit.

                            Back to rant mode for a moment... What REALLY pisses me off is when the (usually) small person in front of me fully reclines their seat.....and then sits upright with their back nowhere near the seat so that they can reach the TV monitor.
                            ...and talking about TV monitors. They are called "TOUCH SCREEN" and not "PUNCH THE SHIT OUT OF ME" for a reason. !!!

                            Rant mode off.

                            I use the recline feature on a long haul flight. I don't use it on 2 - 3 hour shorthauls. When I do use it though I first look to see what the person behind me is doing and see how big they are. I generally ask if they mind if I recline a bit. It's called living in harmony with your fellow man, it's called being REASONABLE, it's called being polite. All features of life which these days are sadly going into decline.

                            I travelled with Monarch Airlines once where my wife was threatened with violence in a particularly abusive manner by a drunk passenger sitting next to her because she used the toilet twice in a 9 hour flight and disturbed him. This was witnessed by a third party and the witness backed us up with a written statement when we complained to the cabin crew purser. Monarch wrote to us after our holiday informing us that the passenger had been identified and was now banned from ever using the airline again which included his return flight. They said that they had also passed his details on to all the other UK charter airlines with a request to consider not accepting any bookings with his name on them. Whether or not that happened I don't know.
                            I do know though that he was stopped in his rental car by the Highway Patrol and arrested for DUI. The fact that I reported the registration to the cops at the airport might have had something to do with that though
                            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                              ...What REALLY pisses me off is when the (usually) small person in front of me fully reclines their seat.....and then sits upright with their back nowhere near the seat so that they can reach the TV monitor...

                              ...I use the recline feature on a long haul flight...

                              ...I don't use it on 2 - 3 hour shorthauls....

                              ...When I do use it though I first look to see what the person behind me is doing and see how big they are. I generally ask if they mind if I recline a bit...
                              I'd just like to point out that you have two or three rules there...YOUR rules.

                              Then Gabriel seems to have HIS rules and Tee Vee some other rules. And while I don't want to reread the entire thread, I'm thinking another person or two here has rules, and I even have some rules of my own...(The red eye back from Hoowaii last Jan was nasty as I wound up just ahead of the Lav unable to recline at all- and that made for crappy sleeping.)

                              ...and accept my apologies that I have never asked the person behind me if it was ok to lean back, because I figured that when the engineers were figuring seat pitch and the amount of recline the seat would do- they had weighed the pros and cons of the world and come up with something that kind of aligned with good Christian principles, Muslim principles, Buddist principles, Common decency (and yeah, even a tad of economics).

                              Yeah, there's no decency, nor common sense in society any more- but the airlines need to take the first step and say what the COMMUNITY rules ARE. You CAN recline, or you CAN'T recline- instead of here- we've screwed you over by cramming you into a tiny space, you figure it out- Decent man Brian, Tall man Gabe and Eye-on-the-law Tee Vee, and then throw in all the folks you've banned recently.

                              Finally, for the record- I probably cannot say that the airlines are 'silent' on the issue- I'm betting some intelligent FA's are now making announcements about what you can and can't do- and maybe there's a lame press release here or there.

                              On the other hand, I have yet to hear them come out and BOLDLY say- "Folks are allowed to do this with their seats- and we are starting a new announcement and encouraging folks to go back slowly, and making special needs folks like Gaberaham Lincoln pay extra for tall-person seats."

                              This is a time when THEY need to take some leadership...and I'll still say that their efforts are a bit low key.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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