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  • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    IMPROVISING IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS? I tend to disagree with you (but that is not total disagreement either- it's the all caps). Rebooting the computer does seem to be improvisation and not-so-wise improvisation when computers are so integral to the basic control of these planes, so I agree here.
    3WE, resetting a flight control computer in flight is procedure. Pulling a breaker for a flight control computer in flight is INSANE. This crash is due to INSANE pilot error.

    Those breakers are there to be reset in flight, not to be pulled in flight. If you get an ECAM message AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM 1, you run the checklist procedure using the overhead buttons to cycle the FAC. If this fails you continue cautiously on autoflight using the back-up. If you get AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM SYS, you run the checklist procedure using the overhead buttons to cycle the FAC(s). If this fails you fly very cautiously on autoflight and hopefully divert and land as soon as possible. Using the overhead pushbuttons allows the units to recycle without sudden loss-of-power consequences. As long as one FAC is available, you don't lose autoflight.

    YOU DON'T PULL FCC BREAKERS IN FLIGHT. That must only be done by ground maintenance. I assume maintenance did this to test and reboot the ROMS. That's perfectly fine on the ground. Doing this in flight (as ANY type-certified A320 pilot should know) defeats autoflight capability and speed-envelope protections. As we have learned here, it can also leave the rudder in mid-manuever, deflected off neutral.

    Oh, what, you didn't know that? It left you confused? It scrambled your situational awareness? Why the sudden roll? WHAT"S IT DOING NOW?!! WHAT DO I DO NOW?!!

    This is total breakdown of situational awareness brought on by IMPROVISATION and ignorance of procedure (and the reasons for procedure). Once SA is lost, anything can happen. As it has over and over again. And some of us go on about the horrendous piloting that results from this as if the pilots had clear situational awareness....

    What they did here went far beyond 'pilot error'. Why? Because they had strayed from procedural discipline so far that they actually considered using an improvised procedure on a flight control computer in flight, despite having no idea how the systems actually work. This is called 'apeing': doing something by imitating what other have done without understanding what they are doing.

    Maybe this works on your DC-3, your old cowboy flying crate when you just had to bang on that one thing every now and then, and then it's fine, it just does that, whatever...

    But getting a seat in a FBW aircraft means respecting the technology, reading the manuals, learning the airplane systems, training on procedure, adhering to procedure and running ONLY the approved procedures unless ground maintenance is instructing you. If you can't fix it with procedure, shut it down and land the thing.

    This is a case of pilot-apeing. This is horrifying! How do such pilots find their way into A320 cockpits?

    There should and must be criminal charges brought against the airline for letting IMPROVISATION go this far in their safety culture.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
      Actually, A320 FCOM Supplemental Procedures section (which is about as type-specific as it gets) lists numerous in-flight CB reset procedures. Just thought you should know.
      For flight control computers?!!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
        ...hardly a great analogy, but i've been driving for a hell of lot longer than ABS has been around. i learned how to use the brakes without locking them up, even on icy roads. now, having driven ABS equipped vehicles for 15 years, i've lost the touch. feathering actually screws up ABS so you have to slam the brakes. technology IS and enemy of sorts.

        how many of you have all of your friends' phone numbers memorized??????...
        Maybe not a great analogy, but I see the relevance and that there is sometimes a negative tension between technology and safety. It ain't all black and white.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
          Actually, A320 FCOM Supplemental Procedures section (which is about as type-specific as it gets) lists numerous in-flight CB reset procedures. Just thought you should know.
          When might you become a check pilot? JMHO, the world will be a better place when it happens.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Evan View Post
            For flight control computers?!!
            I'm afraid so. In fact, the FCOM prohibits only two system CBs from being pulled in flight, and they're not FCC CBs.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
              ...Pulling a breaker for a flight control computer in flight is INSANE. This crash is due to INSANE pilot error...ECAM...AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM 1...AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM SYS...checklist procedure...FAC(s)...Using the overhead pushbuttons allows the units to recycle without sudden loss-of-power consequences. As long as one FAC is available, you don't lose autoflight....defeats autoflight capability and speed-envelope protections....Maybe this works on your DC-3, your old cowboy flying crate when you just had to bang on that one thing every now and then, and then it's fine, it just does that, whatever...
              So the PF keeping the plane in control with typical control inputs and avoiding procedures for INTENTIONAL stalls (in almost every aircraft made) is not valid to prevent plane crashes?

              By the way Tee Vee, I did a driver training class which emphasized ABS. I acknowledge the shortcomings you listed, but feel it offered so many other advantages that it is well worth it.

              However, if the damn computer ever fails and the car is spinning out of the control, I'm going to fail miserably at whatever the official backup procedure is, and will most likely be improvising...there just isn't enough time! Maybe some basic fundamentals regarding steering will be of some benefit, but I just don't know.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                When might you become a check pilot? JMHO, the world will be a better place when it happens.
                When the time is right.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  Originally posted by ATLCrew
                  Actually, A320 FCOM Supplemental Procedures section (which is about as type-specific as it gets) lists numerous in-flight CB reset procedures. Just thought you should know.
                  For flight control computers?!!
                  It's important to note he used the word "reset". If the aircraft is doing something wonky, it's sensible (in my personal more or less ignorant opinion) to check for whether any relevant circuit breakers have tripped, and if so reset them.

                  That's worlds different from reacting to a wonky aircraft by turning off CBs that have not tripped by themselves!

                  Although I would say in certain very specific circumstances, it might be better to have a flight control computer disabled (by cutting its power) than one that's doing random or grossly incorrect things.
                  Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                  Eric Law

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                    Actually, A320 FCOM Supplemental Procedures section (which is about as type-specific as it gets) lists numerous in-flight CB reset procedures. Just thought you should know.
                    ATLcrew, please post the CB monkeying procedure for AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM SYS or AUTO FLT FAC 1 (2) FAULT or even AUTO FLT FAC 1 + 2 FAULT....

                    All the FCOM I have tell the same story:

                    Single RUD TRV LIM failure: no problem (crew awareness).

                    Dual RUD TRV LIM failure: FAC pushbuttons, OFF THEN ON. Unsuccessful? Then fly with caution above 160kts (autopilot remains available)

                    Single FAC FAULT: FAC pushbutton OFF THEN ON. Unsuccessful? Leave the affected FAC OFF. All PFD info now coming from the same FAC, autopilot remains available)

                    Dual FAC FAULT: FAC 1 + 2 pushbuttons OFF THEN ON (one at a time). Unsuccessful? You've lost autoflight, normal law protections and W/S detection. Best to divert.

                    None of this involves pulling CB's

                    THere are procedures for CB cycling of non-FCC systems such as the FMGC, but I would be astounded to find one for an FCC in flight.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by elaw View Post
                      It's important to note he used the word "reset". If the aircraft is doing something wonky, it's sensible (in my personal more or less ignorant opinion) to check for whether any relevant circuit breakers have tripped, and if so reset them.

                      That's worlds different from reacting to a wonky aircraft by turning off CBs that have not tripped by themselves!
                      Yes, that''s what I said above. The FAC CB's are there to be reset in flight, not pulled in flight. Pulling is pilot insanity.

                      Although I would say in certain very specific circumstances, it might be better to have a flight control computer disabled (by cutting its power) than one that's doing random or grossly incorrect things.
                      INDEED, and that is what the overhead pushbuttons are there for. As per FCOM procedure.

                      Comment


                      • And the procedure no doubt works well and is appropriate if the FACs have "failed soft" or "failed safe" or whatever they're designed to do.

                        But suppose they fail in some unanticipated way, have gone berserk and are flapping the elevator up and down repeatedly to full travel, and you've pressed the "please don't do that" buttons and they've had no effect. Would you just sit back and enjoy the ride? Or might you try some ad-libbed corrective steps that aren't on the checklist?

                        I don't know about you, but my PC has menu commands and a button to shut it off, much like the FAC buttons. And over the years, *hundreds* of times, I've had PCs fail to respond to shutoff requests. Granted (or should I say hopefully?) the computers in an aircraft are much more robust and better tested than my PC, but unanticipated failures still can and do happen.
                        Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                        Eric Law

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          ATLcrew, please post the CB monkeying procedure for AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM SYS or AUTO FLT FAC 1 (2) FAULT or even AUTO FLT FAC 1 + 2 FAULT....

                          All the FCOM I have tell the same story:

                          Single RUD TRV LIM failure: no problem (crew awareness).

                          Dual RUD TRV LIM failure: FAC pushbuttons, OFF THEN ON. Unsuccessful? Then fly with caution above 160kts (autopilot remains available)

                          Single FAC FAULT: FAC pushbutton OFF THEN ON. Unsuccessful? Leave the affected FAC OFF. All PFD info now coming from the same FAC, autopilot remains available)

                          Dual FAC FAULT: FAC 1 + 2 pushbuttons OFF THEN ON (one at a time). Unsuccessful? You've lost autoflight, normal law protections and W/S detection. Best to divert.

                          None of this involves pulling CB's

                          THere are procedures for CB cycling of non-FCC systems such as the FMGC, but I would be astounded to find one for an FCC in flight.
                          I'm not posting my company manuals on here. I will tell you, though, that you're looking in the wrong place. Keep in mind that even the Supplemental Procedures only list those resets the crew can perform WITHOUT Mx coordination. We can do quite a bit more if we're in contact with Mx.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by elaw View Post
                            And the procedure no doubt works well and is appropriate if the FACs have "failed soft" or "failed safe" or whatever they're designed to do.

                            But suppose they fail in some unanticipated way, have gone berserk and are flapping the elevator up and down repeatedly to full travel, and you've pressed the "please don't do that" buttons and they've had no effect. Would you just sit back and enjoy the ride? Or might you try some ad-libbed corrective steps that aren't on the checklist?

                            I don't know about you, but my PC has menu commands and a button to shut it off, much like the FAC buttons. And over the years, *hundreds* of times, I've had PCs fail to respond to shutoff requests. Granted (or should I say hopefully?) the computers in an aircraft are much more robust and better tested than my PC, but unanticipated failures still can and do happen.
                            Really, this sort of "if my PC does this then it must apply to avionics" or "if my car's ABS does this..." is quite obviously of no value to this discussion. Only knowledge is of value in technical discussions. elaw, the FAC overhead pushbutton isolates it from the flight control system. Even if it goes "beserk", it cannot do the insane things you describe once it has been selected offline.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                              I'm not posting my company manuals on here. I will tell you, though, that you're looking in the wrong place. Keep in mind that even the Supplemental Procedures only list those resets the crew can perform WITHOUT Mx coordination. We can do quite a bit more if we're in contact with Mx.
                              Yes! This is what I also just said (read my posts carefully). The problem, and the crash itself, is the result of pilot IMPROVISATION. If Mx is on the line instructing the crew, that is not pilot improvisation. But they weren't. Why are you citing scenarios that are very different from what happened here?

                              But even so, I still HIGHLY doubt you will find a recomendation to cycle FAC breakers in flight. If you do, they will be done one at a time, with a division of time between each recycle and the crew will be advised of all the expected consequences and be made fully prepared to address them. It will be done very carefully.

                              When that Polish Airlines 767 had trouble with the alternate gear downloacks, Mx spent an hour running very careful procedures with the crew. And that was a very dire situation. The situation experienced by this crew was fairly benign (they would not have even lost autoflight) and I cannot imagine Mx wanting to risk a CB recycle under those circumstances. The wise instruction would be to follow ECAM and get it safely on the ground at the destination where it can be pulled out of service and seriously inspected.

                              I am not "looking in the wrong place". I am looking where the pilots would be looking. They were not in communication with ground maintenance, so ground maintenance manuals (mostly intended for ground maintenance procedures) are irrelevant to the discussion.

                              Comment


                              • One reason for the ensuing cockpit chaos might be that the PNF (hopefully not the PF) has to get out of his seat to pull one of the FAC CB's on the bulkhead. One pilot out of his seat followed by a 53° uncommanded roll, sudden loss of autoflight, master warning, ECAM messages... Think about that.

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