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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Since 1994 there have been 6 pilot murdercides.
    This compares to 6 hijack crashes, 4 of which were the 2001 9/11 incidents. Since 9/11 there have not been any cockpit invasions despite what must amount to thousands of "pilot leaving cockpit to use the toilet" instances.



    Personally speaking, I think that the "2 people in the cockpit" at all times is a good rule.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

    Comment


    • Since 1994 there have been 6 pilot murdercides.
      This compares to 6 hijack crashes, 4 of which were the 2001 9/11 incidents. Since 9/11 there have not been any cockpit invasions despite what must amount to thousands of "pilot leaving cockpit to use the toilet" instances.



      Personally speaking, I think that the "2 people in the cockpit" at all times is a good rule.
      If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

      Comment


      • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
        Since 1994 there have been 6 pilot murdercides.
        This compares to 6 hijack crashes, 4 of which were the 2001 9/11 incidents. Since 9/11 there have not been any cockpit invasions despite what must amount to thousands of "pilot leaving cockpit to use the toilet" instances.



        Personally speaking, I think that the "2 people in the cockpit" at all times is a good rule.
        Exactly my thought. Also, I don't understand why the door would be opened more times with the "2 people in the cockpit" rule.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          Exactly my thought. Also, I don't understand why the door would be opened more times with the "2 people in the cockpit" rule.
          I get it. Maybe not two discrete open / closures, but a longer time while folks shuffle by each other and be distracted.

          AND some cockpits are REALLY tight.

          As to the risk:benefit, that may be another story that supports two folks in a cockpit.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            I get it. Maybe not two discrete open / closures, but a longer time while folks shuffle by each other and be distracted.

            AND some cockpits are REALLY tight.

            As to the risk:benefit, that may be another story that supports two folks in a cockpit.
            Why not have two cockpit doors with a small space between them, where one has to be closed before the other will open, like an airlock, so there is never an open path from the cabin to the cockpit?

            Comment


            • And what would that accomplish?

              Never mind the pushback (pun intended) you'd get from the airlines at having to have a few more square inches of the aircraft not generating revenue. Okay who am I kidding... they'd just use it as an excuse to reduce seat pitch even more.
              Be alert! America needs more lerts.

              Eric Law

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              • Originally posted by elaw View Post
                And what would that accomplish?

                Never mind the pushback (pun intended) you'd get from the airlines at having to have a few more square inches of the aircraft not generating revenue. Okay who am I kidding... they'd just use it as an excuse to reduce seat pitch even more.
                In the case of the A320 (or any aircraft with a lav in the passge between the cabin and the cockpit), it would allow the pilots to use the lav without exposing themselves or the cockpit to the cabin. The outer door would be stowed open for the rest of the time, allowing the cabin access to the lav. When a crew member wants to use the lav, they page an FA to secure the outer door. Then the inner door cannot be locked until the outer door is unlocked from the inside. The outer door can be unlocked from the outside only after the inner door is re-locked from the inside.

                So the pilot calls the FA, the FA secures the outer door (some indicator in the cockpit shows this), the pilot opens the inner door and uses the lav, then unlocks (but does not open) the outer door, returns to the cockpit and the inner door locks. The pilot then pages the FA to open the outer door.

                One pilot cannot lock the other pilot out when using the lav. At no time does anyone from the cabin have an open path to the cockpit.

                Pilot entering the cabin itself would just not involve the outer door.

                Simple, right?

                Ok, yes, it's complicated and a better solution lies in rethinking the current cockpit lock system so that a pilot can never be locked out. I think each flight crew member should have a 4-digit pin that works the door of any plane in the fleet when combined with a fifth and sixth digit generated by the lock system on that particular flight. The crew member would have the first four digits memorized the same way we all memorize our pin numbers, and would only have to remember the two-digit flight access number. Even if an aspiring terrorist gained access to the crew member's pin, they wouldn't have the other two numbers. In return, there would be no cockpit override. Problem solved.

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                • The biggest benefit of 2 in the cockpit is to have someone available to hit the door unlock button if necessary to let the cockpit crew member/hairy arsed armed sky marshal/steward into the cockpit to deal with the suicidal one.
                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                  Comment


                  • All good and valid discussion.

                    However:

                    Egypt air happened with two people in the cockpit...and two people at the controls.

                    A mentally disturbed pilot, intent on taking his plane down, has a number of ways to accomplish that- even with two folks present.

                    To some extent, we are mainly limiting the ability to do it Germanwings style where you program the autopilot to do it while you sit back and just ride.

                    Also, how many 'incidents' have we had with lock outs...

                    I think there's been a few lock failures, along with that one incident where the PF got it in his head that the PP (pilot peeing) had lost HIS mind and needed to be locked out of the cockpit. Innocent and laughable, but...
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      All good and valid discussion.

                      However:

                      Egypt air happened with two people in the cockpit...and two people at the controls.
                      Not exactly. The situation began with the captain out of the cockpit. When he came back he saw the copilot manipulating the controls and praying, and the captain returned to his seat to "help" him. I don't know at what point, if ever, did the captain realize what was going on there, which would have been obvious if he had been there from the start.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Also, how many 'incidents' have we had with lock outs...
                        A year or two before Germanwings we had that LAM Embraer in Mozambique...
                        "I know that at times I can be a little over the top." -ITS

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