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  • FAO: Gabriel

    No, we don't need AOA indicators.

    But that basic, broad, cowboy stick and rudder fundamental airmanship concept to 'constantly' check that your airspeed is healthy, (especially when high, or when going slow, or making turns or when low...)

    ...and don't go pulling up relentlessly if there's stall warnings going off...

    https://gma.yahoo.com/plane-stalls-m...pstories.html#

    The Federal Aviation Administration is slapping SkyWest with speed and altitude restrictions after one of the airline's planes allegedly stalled last April.

    SkyWest –- which partners with carriers like United, Delta, U.S. Airways, and American Airlines –- carried 27.9 million passengers in 2014.

    The flight that the FAA says stalled en route from Denver to Oklahoma City rapidly descended from 39,000 feet to 27,000 feet, but managed to land without incident at its scheduled destination, according to the FAA.

    With the new restrictions -– 35,000 feet for SkyWest's CRJ700 and 900 aircraft and 33,000 feet for CRJ200 aircraft –- the FAA likely hopes to give SkyWest pilots a larger margin for error.

    The FAA also imposed minimum cruise speeds: approximately 272 mph for CRJ200s and approximately 288 mph for SkyWest CRJ700s and 900s.
    At higher altitudes, experts say, minor mistakes can prompt jets to lose lift and stall. Slow speeds can also cause stalls.

    “A stall happens when the airflow over the wing is interrupted, and basically you stop flying for a period of time,” explains ABC Aviation consultant John Nance. “You have to take action immediately, and if you mishandle it you can end up in an even worse situation.”

    With 10,777 employees and more than 300 planes, the airline operates more than 1,800 flights each day, according to its website. Its hubs include Chicago O'Hare, Los Angles International, Denver International, and Houston International airports, among others.

    The airline has not addressed whether any it plans to conduct any crew re-training.

    SkyWest called the FAA's decision "a head-scratcher," saying their their plane didn't stall, but rather experienced a "slow speed event."

    "Months ago, one SkyWest CRJ aircraft experienced an isolated slow speed event, which is when an aircraft reaches less than optimal speeds. The aircraft’s slow speed alert systems functioned perfectly, and the crew responded appropriately with a 4,000-foot descent. No stall occurred," SkyWest said in a statement to ABC.

    The airline called the FAA's decision "a sweeping and arbitrary reaction that was not fully explained."

    "We expect that when the FAA fully analyzes the data, it will lift all restrictions," the arline continued. "SkyWest is an industry leader in safety and is committed to ensuring each of our flights operates safely."
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    This is absurd. There is no reason, outside of wind-shear or icing, why a properly trained pilot who is pilot-material to begin with should ever get a stall warning. Giving "a larger margin for error" just means more margin above the point they are going to get to anyway if they aren't flying the plane. That might buy time, but it doesn't even begin to address the problem.

    And Skywest responds by stating that, because the stall warning systems functioned and the pilots responded correctly, there is no problem here?

    Skywest > no fly list.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      1)...There is no reason, outside of wind-shear or icing, why a properly trained...

      2)...the stall warning systems functioned and the pilots responded correctly...
      1. While I tend to agree, and it's extremely rare, it continues to happen every so often. But it does rank an emoticon and some ass-hat-parlour-talk-arm-chair criticism.

      2. The backup 'systems' did work...beautifully...and FWIW, the response was not continued, extended pull ups, nor did they mess up the engines (seems like a marked improvement on two fronts). But indeed, it does not excuse the emoticon above nor crucifixion on amateur discussion forums!
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #4
        "Months ago, one SkyWest CRJ aircraft experienced an isolated slow speed event, which is when an aircraft reaches less than optimal speeds. The aircraft’s slow speed alert systems functioned perfectly, and the crew responded appropriately with a 4,000-foot descent. No stall occurred," SkyWest said in a statement to ABC.
        On second thought, and given the media's desire to make a story- maybe there is "nothing here".

        Wow, dude, our airspeed is decaying, it's hotter up here than was forecast and maybe our passengers packed heavier than the fudge factor, what shall we do?...

        Well, Mr. Competent FO, let's not go get a coke nor sit here and marvel at the deck angle, let's lower the nose a tad, get some airspeed and descend.

        ..."Center, we need to descend"...

        ..."Maintain altitude, I can have lower for you in about 10 minutes"...


        ..."Center, unable"...

        All you need is that red font stuff and it's NEAR TOTAL AIR DISASTER!!!!, "disobeying ATC, emergency death dives, near-declared-emergencies, near stall where the plane plummets out of control just like Air France"

        I would like to see exactly what the FAA thinks that someone did wrong...maybe it's something super nitpicky and not necessarily due to the flight crew?
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't have the details on the incident so, parlour talk perhaps, but...

          A key role of the flight crew is flight planning and flight management using the performance data available along with atmospheric conditions and weight calculations. Another key role of the flight crew is imposing restrictions upon the aircraft based on the above, for things such as ceiling and airspeed. A third key role of the flight crew is to monitor the status of the aircraft and keep it where it needs to be (this is called piloting).

          Essentially, what the FAA is saying by imposing restrictions on THE AIRCRAFT for a specific OPERATOR... is that said operator's pilots cannot be trusted to do this themselves. YET THEY ARE STILL ALLOWED TO BE PILOTS.

          Please tell me I've got this wrong.

          Comment


          • #6
            And please tell me what a "slow speed event warning" is. The only speed warning I'm aware of is STALL warning, and a competent crew who are actively monitoring should see the barberpole coming well before that happens. A bit of added thrust (if any is available) or a bit of descent might result but a stall warning is a wake-up call.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              ...a competent crew who are actively monitoring should see the barberpole coming well before that happens...
              My view (from the outside, looking in) is yes.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #8
                Enough have I said about stalls and approach to stalls already, but the FAA decision looks stupid to me. I wonder if they had applied those restrictions had the plane actually crashed as the result of this event (and its mismanagement afterwards) and killed everybody and a full blown NTSB investigation was in place. They had never done so in any of the previous crashes or incidents.

                If they think that the planes are not safe to fly at some speeds and altitudes, they should amend the airplanes' type certificate.

                If they think that the Sky West crews in general cannot safely fly the plane within the approved envelope, they should do something very different than imposing speed and altitude restrictions.

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                Comment


                • #9
                  As you no doubt all know by now, I am nowhere near being a pilot other than 18 hours of PPL training in a PA28......

                  .....but to me the words "Slow speed event warning" mean only one thing.....

                  In or close to a stall.

                  I am struggling to understand how that can happen at a cruise altitude of 39,000 feet which I assume the aircraft concerned is certified to fly at.
                  Answers in plain English with no sarcasm would be appreciated as I am genuinely interested in this issue.
                  If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Brian:

                    The early CRJs are known for being a bit under powered and not necessarily able to make their max cert altitude unless they are lighter and its colder.

                    This is integral to the Pinnacle four one oh crash, and was discussed at length. It was actually a big deal to the Pinnacle pilots as they pretty rarely got to FL410 and even though empty (of passengers, but not fuel), they could not maintain it. Arguably-had they arrived at 410 normally and not in a nose-high drag, maybe they could have held it there... maybe, but there was minimal extra power.

                    In Flying magazine a few weeks ago Sam Wiegel described missing an auto throttle disconnect and catching it later than he would have liked and also discussed the limitations of an MD-80S ability to fly in the upper 30's when hot and heavy. I guess airliner weights and altitudes and air temps aren't all black and white and have some tradeoffs built in.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      Sam Wiegel
                      Who is he?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Not_Karl View Post
                        Who is he?
                        An obscure journal......errrr, ummmm typist at an obscure, not widely read aviation magazine.
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh Shit.....here we go again... LOL.
                          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                            I am struggling to understand how that can happen at a cruise altitude of 39,000 feet which I assume the aircraft concerned is certified to fly at.
                            Answers in plain English with no sarcasm would be appreciated as I am genuinely interested in this issue.
                            More or less the same than 3we already said.

                            That an airplane has a certified ceiling of say 41000ft means that you are not allowed to go above that, but it doesn't mean that you will be able to reach and maintain it every time. The three main factors are airplane weight, air density (especially temperature) and how you reach there.

                            It is very possible to reach a given altitude by trading speed, only to find that you lack the necessary thrust to sustain it, then you can hold on for a while while bleeding more speed, but if by doing so you find yourself below the minimum drag speed, then the only way out is down. It can be commanded, stalled or whatever. But you will not stay up there no matter how hard you try.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              An obscure journal......errrr, ummmm typist at an obscure, not widely read aviation magazine.
                              That one guy must be even "obscurer", because even I don't know him.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment

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