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  • Sabreliner mid air collision

    Sabreliner and a Cessna 172 just collided over California, not survivors.

    http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...n-field-fatal/


    A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

  • #2
    Darn...sounds as if they were maneuvering for landing...ideally they would have been talking to and avoiding each other.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Darn...sounds as if they were maneuvering for landing...ideally they would have been talking to and avoiding each other.
      See and be seen
      A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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      • #4
        Who wants to put some money on the Sabreliner calling finals further out from the Cessna which is on base leg. The Cessna calls turning finals, everyone thinks it's behind the Sabreliner because it called finals after the jet but actually it has turned inside the jet having flown a tighter circuit. The Cessna is now below and in front of the Sabreliner, which has a long nose which is probably blanking the view below.
        Brown Field Municipal does have an approach/departure radar service. It remains to be seen if it was in use or not.

        In any event may those who died rest in peace.
        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AVION1 View Post
          See and be seen
          Yeah, that's what the rule book says, but after a lot of years of thinking about things, it's also a bunch of BS. (Or perhaps I should restate a bit more gently- "Not always that effective".)

          Most low time pilots- me included- can tell stories of being surprised by other planes- even when being vigilant. Heck, sometimes the use of the UNICOM doesn't help either!

          Planes hit each other with some frequency.

          Let's not forget the PSA 727- controlled airspace, VFR conditions, traffic call outs, and they may have even had the 172 in sight, but lost it and ran right over it.

          There's lots and lots of blind spots. An airplane tends to be a HUGE instrument panel with a little window on top and to the side and generally a big long nose blocking downward visibility.

          Sometimes, a landing 737 can't see a turboprop parked on the runway either!

          Commercial aviation runs in a largely (but not totally) controlled airspace situation (along with TCAS and traffic advisories), and that helps, but for those who operate at uncontrolled airports and uncontrolled airspace a lot...every once and a while bad things happen.

          Yeah, keep your eyes open, and use the radio (which of course is not actually required at uncontrolled airports) and hope and pray for "the big sky factor" to protect you! (because that's just as powerful as "see and be seen")

          ...but maybe it's time to throw some 'cheap' electronics at the problem and develop a TCAS-like I-phone app for all things in the air...
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            Who wants to put some money on the Sabreliner calling finals further out from the Cessna which is on base leg. The Cessna calls turning finals, everyone thinks it's behind the Sabreliner because it called finals after the jet but actually it has turned inside the jet having flown a tighter circuit. The Cessna is now below and in front of the Sabreliner, which has a long nose which is probably blanking the view below.
            Brown Field Municipal does have an approach/departure radar service. It remains to be seen if it was in use or not.

            In any event may those who died rest in peace.
            A couple of years ago, I was riding with a friend in a 172 in severe VMC...we were heading towards a controlled airport, maybe 10 miles out, roughly aligned with the final approach course...we tune the tower but don't call in as we're just sight seeing...A business jet calls in on the ILS...I grab the yoke to raise a wing and there's the jet a few hundred feet above us...closing really fast, but I was glad that we just happened to be at slightly different altitudes.

            ...they call the tower, "Are you talking to a Cessna out here on final?"

            The tower said, "no".

            It was by no means a NEAR TOTAL AIR DISASTER!!!!!, indeed they saw us (we would have never seen them, were it not for monitoring the tower)...and we were under no requirement to check in with the tower...arguably we could have, but conversely, we might have decided to change course to go look at something...

            Had a couple of things been different (and no laws nor general rules of good operating procedures would have to be broken), you guys could be discussing me...
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #7
              I have two competing stories:

              1st one, the only time that I got really scared for a near hit I didn't do a good "see and avoid" practice, neither did my instructor, and neither did the pilot in the other plane. I was flying a non-controlled VFR corridor but at the time I was crossing what we call the ATZ (Airport Transit Zone) of a controlled airport and had checked in with the tower. The other plane checked in only after the very close near hit (I crossed the wake turbulence of the other plane about one second after the other plane crossed in front of me). Being exactly at the same altitude, flying at about the same airspeed, and with paths crossing at about 90 degrees, we must have been perfectly visible to each other at about 45 degrees to my right and to the other plane's left.

              2nd example, having done my PPL and most of my hours at a controlled and very busy airport (at a time the busiest of Argentina, where being number 7 for take off or landing was normal), it happened to me that we could not spot traffic that we knew was there and about at the same spot. Two examples. We are returning from the training area and check in with the towe who gives us instructions to call downwind of runway 34. Scenario 1: We are about to call downwind when we here "Cessna 1234 downwind runway 34", we didn't see the Cessna yet and even after the call we cannot find it. Scenario 2: We call downwind and we receive from the tower "You are number 7 behind the Cessna in downwind", and again we don't see the Cessna. Fortunately, in all these cases we always eventually spotted the plane which happened to be not dangerously close, but there was no reason why it could not have been otherwise.

              See and be seen, or see and avoid as it is also called, helps but gives no guarantee, even if diligently executed. The big sky helps but is no guarantee either. ATC helps but is no guarantee either, even in controlled airspace. All three combined help and actually prevent most of the midairs but are still no guarantee, and midairs have happened and will keep happening. Those who fly know (or should know) and accept the risk, trying to mitigate it but never eliminating it.

              3WE, it is very hard to make a TCAS-like iPhone app. But there are very cheap TCAS-like portable systems that will call "Traffic, 3 o'clock, 3 miles, high". Now ADSB-out will be mandatory in 2020. If you opt to equip your plane with ADSB-in you will also have traffic advisories.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                ...3WE, it is very hard to make a TCAS-like iPhone app. But there are very cheap TCAS-like portable systems that will call ...
                In case you haven't noticed, I like to weave sarcasm and truth looking for parallels and ironing.

                The capabilities of electronics has soared and the cost has plummeted, with I-phones and I-pads being a great example, including them being nice, convenient, forest-saving electronic approach plate binders.

                Yeah, sure maybe an I-phone couldn't do it and yeah, ADSB is coming (and getting cheaper)...but not soon enough for these folks.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #9
                  This was the aircraft involved in the accident. Has been confirmed by the NTSB.
                  A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                    ...call downwind...call downwind...Cessna 1234 downwind...call downwind...in downwind...
                    By the way, what the hell does "call downwind" mean?

                    If you are in the pattern, shooting touch and goes, you're a bit off to the side of the departure end of the runway...if you are flying in on a textbook 45-degree pattern, you are midfield. If you are approaching from far away, aligned with the runway, your "downwind" might be several miles upwind from the immediate traffic pattern.

                    Just a slightly off-topic rant that "calling downwind" is some crappy insider jargon that is not as clear as it should be...

                    "Cessna 12345 is turning from crosswind to downwind off the departure end"...

                    "Piper 4321 is entering midfield downwind off the 45 degree entry"

                    "Bonanza 31415 papa india is X miles out to the NSEW on an extended downwind"...and then you should call in again shortly before you reach the typical crosswind leg...."

                    /rant.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      Now ADSB-out will be mandatory in 2020.
                      Then I'm getting started on the iPhone App now. You wan't in? There's free snacks and a ping-pong table.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        Then I'm getting started on the iPhone App now. You wan't in? There's free snacks and a ping-pong table.
                        Why am I imagining a passenger on an airliner storming the cockpit screaming "Conflict Alert, Conflict Alert"?
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                          Yeah, sure maybe an I-phone couldn't do it and yeah, ADSB is coming (and getting cheaper)...but not soon enough for these folks.
                          These folks already had the opportunity to equip their airplane with... no wait, it is not even equip their airplane, have a cheap, small and portable traffic advisory system.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            These folks already had the opportunity to equip their airplane with... no wait, it is not even equip their airplane, have a cheap, small and portable traffic advisory system.
                            But, we're kind of cowboys...and with Av-Gas being so expensive, stuff like GPS, autopilots, and glass-panel displays, and dual Nav-Coms and glide slope receivers, and working radios and working turn coordinators, and healthy vacuum pumps and healthy alternators, and traffic avoidance systems and clear, unscratched, unleaking windows and wheel pants...

                            ...if it ain't required, we sometimes go cheap and the sky is almost always big enough.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • #15
                              Looks like a "nose first" impact.
                              Spin?
                              A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

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