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Why Embraer Beats Airbus in Advanced Technology and safety

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    They are paid 0.40 / hour for your life, then another 0.40 for the life of the passenger next to you, then another 0.40 for the pax in 12B...

    Get the idea?

    What he is not saying that taking care of just one life (his own) is the best guarantee that all the rest of the lives aboard will be automatically taken care of. So he is getting 15/hour to take care of his own life.

    Moreover, he is getting paid 0.40/ flight hour for the experience and the training (including both the training that happens while flying as the ground training) that will enable him for jobs that are much better paid.

    He said: "Trust me, it IS that bad, I was one of them not too long ago."

    So what now? He moved away from being an airline pilot, or moved UP becoming a better paid airline pilot, what he would not be had he not been in THAT BAD situation first?

    Not to mention that, before becoming a badly paid pilot at USD 14 / hour, he was a PAYING pilot paying at least USD 140 / flight hour, not to mention ground training. At 40K per year, you recover ALL THE MONEY invested in training in just one, or at most 2 years. Not every investment has such a return rate.

    Now, don't take me seriously. I don't agree with pilots being underpaid. I am playing devil's advocate. Just to show how "information" can be twisted one way or another.

    Saying that one makes "just" 0.40 per hour for your life is badly twisting the reality. I wonder how much does an O'Hare tower ATC controller make per hour per each life that was in his hands during that hour, with an airliner taking-off or landing every 2 minutes.
    If you pay $350 for a flight, how much of it goes to the F/O? I expect a thorough, scientific answer with algebra I don't understand.

    ~

    But in context with the times, pilots aren't so bad off. Many go on to make handsome six-figure salaries without having to sell their souls or sit in meetings all day. They aren't burdened with the enormous student loans that most people at that pay-level are having to pay off. And they do, actually, get to do the thing they dreamed about as a kid. I doubt many well-paid lawyers dreamed as a kid of digging through pages of contractual gibberish all day looking for a moment of weakness. I realize the low-hour regional guys are under financial stress and that bothers me, but offer them a big raise if they transfer to the legal department and I bet none of them would touch it.

    A lot of industries abuse the low hanging fruit with long hours and low pay. The difference is that pilots should be well-rested and fully focused on flying, not on their finances. But you want laissez faire, America? Welcome to laissez faire.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      They are paid 0.40 / hour for your life, then another 0.40 for the life of the passenger next to you, then another 0.40 for the pax in 12B...

      Saying that one makes "just" 0.40 per hour for your life is badly twisting the reality. I wonder how much does an O'Hare tower ATC controller make per hour per each life that was in his hands during that hour, with an airliner taking-off or landing every 2 minutes.
      Yeah, no kidding!

      Using the same computational method, the president of the USA makes $0.000000144 per person-hour. That's based on a 168-hour workweek (7 days * 24 hours)... after all, the president actually *lives* at his office. And $400K/year salary and US population of 318.9 million.

      But that's all moot anyway... pilots aren't paid by the person any more than the president is.
      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

      Eric Law

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        If you pay $350 for a flight, how much of it goes to the F/O? I expect a thorough, scientific answer with algebra I don't understand.
        Actually the answer to that question is pretty easy! Because it doesn't matter how much you or anyone else paid for a ticket.

        According to the intarwebs the average airline pilot spends 75 hours/month flying and 150 hours/month doing ground duties for a total of 225 hours/month or 2700 hours/year. Dividing our hypothetical pilot's pay of $30K/year by those 2700 hours yields $11.11 per hour. Not exactly a Donald Trump pay rate!

        If anyone's interested, those numbers actually came from this page: https://www.pea.com/airline-pilot-salary/ which has a lot of other good info.
        Be alert! America needs more lerts.

        Eric Law

        Comment


        • #34
          Here's a whole OTHER tangent:

          Shouldn't the most senior, highest-dollar pilots be operating the no-autopilot Beechcraft 1900 to 200 & 1/2 at Southeast, Nowhere Regional Airport? (That takes a LOT of skill and judgement)

          ...and the newbies be operating the Mega-Evan-Automated-ELCAS-Enabled BoeingBus that spends 98% of it's time in fat, dumb and happy cruise, and the extremely rare true, below Cat I minimums autoland? Sure, if the newbie screws up it's going to cost a lot more to get a new airplane and CNN will give you a lot more coverage, but there is some ironing that the big $ pilots mostly just monitor and cruise and sometimes (albeit a little bit rare) struggle to make their required number of landings per month!

          I think if one compares Regional pay scales and responsibilities with Major pay scales and responsibilities, the differences are pretty extreme and illogical...

          ...but apparently, the Industry and their bean counters (and their customers and the poor suckers who go to work for the regionals in hope of landing a better job) feel that works.

          https://www.travelocity.com/
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            ...and the newbies be operating the Mega-Evan-Automated-ELCAS-Enabled BoeingBus that spends 98% of it's time in fat, dumb and happy cruise, and the extremely rare true, below Cat I minimums autoland?
            Has AVIATION magazine never done a story on reduced separation vertical minima? It doesn't matter if it's an A390 or a 732. ALL pilots spend most of their time in fat dumb and happy cruise control. I think the senior guys should be rewarded with better tools to lower their workload. The new guys have to earn that. With skills.

            I just would like to know how much of the ticket revenue, after operating costs and equipment expense, goes to labor vs management and investors.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              ...It doesn't matter if it's an A390 or a 732. ALL pilots spend most of their time in fat dumb and happy cruise control...
              Umm, I guess that is correct, "most time in cruise" but conversely, it's grossly wrong. AND, you seem to be missing the point of regional pilots / aircraft, since you only list stuff that's fairly exclusively "big iron/Major-airline" aircraft.

              The "upper echelon" of pilots take off, fly 8 hours straight, and land at a major airport with top notch ATC, weather, and 'pireps' from planes immediately ahead of them. Then they fly back. One more trip and they call it a month.

              Regional guys go back and forth to Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Denver to BF here, BF there and BF in-between multiple times per day, spend less time at cruise, spend more time down low in weather and do a lot more landing at po-dunk airports with shorter runways, less instrumentation, and lack the five planes ahead of them when the squall line is approaching to warn them when the wind shear starts to kick in (or doesn't). AND let's bring up your favorite subject of duty hours...They get their 8 hours by making a short flight at 5:00 AM and several more through the day and then finish up at what? 10:00 PM? (And let me reemphasize that they WORK a lot MORE during those flights...multiple complex arrivals and departures approaches and briefings and checklist run-throughs and start ups and complex taxi routes with mean NY ground controllers, etc, etc, etc.)

              (Would Lexington-KY-Comair-Wrong-Runway have happened if they could have followed a LINE of Airbi and Boeings to the active runway? (and not come in on the night flight the night before?))

              There is a large and significant difference in the demands and the hazards they face.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                There is a large and significant difference in the demands and the hazards they face.
                No doubt it's harder, more demanding and difficult work to fly regional. How is that different from any other industry? The peons do all the hard stuff. The crusty dudes kick back in their corner offices. It's the American dream.

                Since the dawn of the industrial age we have been confronted with the Peter Principal. I wonder if that somewhat applies to aviation. You learn to manhandle weather in a cable-driven rat cage and to navigate with a bunch of dials. You become so good at this you are promoted to a glass-cockpit magenta line PBW computer room that flies itself, rendering those skills mostly useless (and requiring new ones you might not have), and someone less skilled takes over the old rat cage. This is the dilemna of the industrial age.

                I agree with you though, that at least the PIC on these flights should have thousands of flight hours and be paid the same as a PIC on the big iron. When you add the number of pax by the number of cycles per month, it might come out to be about the same, and the iron itself is not that less valuable.

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                • #38
                  while i would never advocate the abuse of employees in any situ, i'm having a hard time feeling all that bad for regional pilots that CHOSE their jobs and pursued said jobs with the knowledge of how shitty the pay would be.

                  when i worked as a paramedic in NYC i knew beforehand what the pay would be, that it wasn't on par with what other major cities' medics were paid. and while i of course wanted to make more, i didn't blame anyone for my shitty pay rate.

                  what the world refuses to acknowledge and change is that publicly traded companies controlled by wall street whores are ALWAYS going to screw their employees and customers for the sake of making .5 extra cents per day. there is absolutely no thought given to anything but the bottom line dollar.

                  i don't give a shit about their mission and values statements or their claims about safety and satisfaction being so important--those statements are simply made as marketing/cover-up efforts.

                  regionals are nothing more than scrap gatherers trying to make a go at handling routes that are presumably less profitable for the big guys. stands to reason that if your entire business model is based upon trying to make money at something that others couldn't you might not be able to pay your employees all that much.

                  there is also the consideration that regionals are almost always used as stepping stones. as such, they constantly have to hire and train new pilots who themselves wont stay for very long.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post

                    what the world refuses to acknowledge and change is that publicly traded companies controlled by wall street whores are ALWAYS going to screw their employees and customers for the sake of making .5 extra cents per day. their is absolutely no thought given to anything but the bottom line dollar.

                    i don't give a shit about their mission and values statements or their claims about safety and satisfaction being so important--those statements are simply made as marketing/cover-up efforts.
                    Indeed.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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