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  • Evan
    replied
    PIC lost consciousness... apparently survived....

    As per procedure, the F/O donned his 02 mask before diverting. Another thing to practice in the sim.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=48d8c2a4&opt=0

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  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    You might want to take another minute with that one...
    Airbus logic...

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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    Lets assume that people don't forget that relentless pull ups don't lead to stalls.
    You might want to take another minute with that one...

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  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Ok, let's assume...
    - that people don't simply drop dead instantly most of the time. For instance, a pilot having a heart attack is going to have chest pains and difficulty breathing before he loses consciousness. There is time for the other pilot to take command. Sure, there are certain, very rare instances when a person might lose consciousness without warning, but come on...
    Lets assume that people don't forget that relentless pull ups don't lead to stalls.

    That birds won't take out both engines

    That the compressor parts won't take out all hydraulics

    That guys won't shut down the good engine

    That the rudder actuator won't go into reverse mode

    Sure, there are certain, very rare instances, but come on

    By the way, to reststate: most of our pros feel it best to complete the flight alone using automation, procedures and fundamentals.

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  • brianw999
    replied
    I have lost count how many times in the back of my ambulance, and those of my colleagues a patient has suddenly and without any warning put their hand to their chest and dropped dead without a sound. It is not as uncommon as you might think.

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  • HalcyonDays
    replied
    elaw - you may or may not be correct to say that cases of pilot incapacitation may have actually been cases of pilot suicide, though I doubt it in more than a handful of cases. However, there is no case whatever to support the notion that the BE548 captain was suicidal. It is well known that he had a serious heart condition prior to the accident and that stress arising from certain factors before this flight and most probably during the flight's 2-minute duration could well have led to a further heart-related event. Moreover, there were no factors whatever in the gentleman's life that remotely indicated a suicidal tendency.

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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by elaw View Post
    That's not much time for the PM to identify that there's a problem, gain an understanding of the nature of the problem, possibly deal with something like a person slumped over the controls, orient himself to the sudden change in role, and assume control of the airplane.
    Originally posted by 3WE
    I find 150 lbs of limp humanity slumped over the controls a bit disturbing, potentially interfereing with the grand ultimate fundamental memory checklist item #1: Aviate. (Type specific exceptions for the B-737-236A acknowledged)
    Ok, let's assume that people don't simply drop dead instantly most of the time. For instance, a pilot having a heart attack is going to have chest pains and difficulty breathing before he loses consciousness. There is time for the other pilot to take command. Sure, there are certain, very rare instances when a person might lose consciousness without warning, but come on...

    Originally posted by 3WE
    Maybe the air Bus auto pilot can disregard 'all' control inputs- a potential plus for the tactile feedback killer.
    No, you move the stick beyond a certain threshold and the autopilot will disengage. If the incapacitated pilot is on the controls, the other one needs to hit the priority switch right away. Which brings me to...

    Originally posted by Gabriel
    Yes, it is trained in the sim and I remember a story of an FO that didn't pass the checkride when his virtual plane crashed when he abandoned his duty to help the captain who, in the middle of the take-off run, had slumped on the controls next to him.
    I hadn't thought of that, but I can see the need to mentally train pilots to attend to the aviation part first and then their fallen comrade.

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  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    That seems like a waste of sim time to me. In any sim scenario, you have a pilot flying and a pilot monitoring. If one pilot becomes incapacitated, you only lose the pilot monitoring. This increases the workload for the pilot flying but doesn't impede his ability to fly the plane. AFIAK the SOP is simply to divert to the nearest serviceable airport and request medical services.

    The danger lies in the potential for something unexpected to arise that involves CRM procedure and now must be improvised by a lone pilot. That increases the risk of pilot error but, as 3WE will reassure us, can also be dealt with using basic airmanship in most cases where pilot error does not play a fatal role. And in most jets these days, there is ECAM or EICAS to help you along...

    I have a question: in this scenario is it permissable (or advisable) to have one of the cabin crew sit in the observer seat to run checklists with the remaining pilot? I think it is always good to have a pair of minds checking off the essentials and it would take some stress off the isolated pilot.
    Tee real danger is if it happens in a critical phase of flight with the flying pilot manually flying the plane, like take-off, last part of the approach and landing.

    Yes, it is trained in the sim and I remember a story of an FO that didn't pass the checkride when his virtual plane crashed when he abandoned his duty to help the captain who, in the middle of the take-off run, had slumped on the controls next to him.

    His point was that he believed that the captain had an actual medical emergency and that he knew that he was in a simulation so a virtual crash would not damage anything or anybody.

    And yes, it is typical that someone will occupy the empty seat. Pilots ask if there is a pilot in the plane, because a pilot can help with the radio comms.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ...as 3WE will reassure us, can also be dealt with using basic airmanship in most cases where pilot error does not play a fatal role. And in most jets these days, there is ECAM or EICAS to help you along...

    I have a question: in this scenario is it permissable (or advisable) to have one of the cabin crew sit in the observer seat to run checklists with the remaining pilot? I think it is always good to have a pair of minds checking off the essentials and it would take some stress off the isolated pilot...
    What I will assure you is that the single pilot in the Cape Airways plane deals with a whole shit pot more stuff than a two crew jetliner, yet is certified to try not to kill me....

    The subject of a dead heading pilot coming up to monitor has been brought up before... the guys who actually do this for a living felt it brought some dangers and would not be worth it, as I recall.

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  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by elaw View Post
    ....
    I can't remember what it's called but I think there's a program out there for people who are not pilots but frequently fly in light planes. It teaches them the basics of what to do if the pilot is incapacitated. Perhaps they could create something along the same lines for FAs...
    The AOPA pinch hitter course...

    (Or MSFS for the modern snot-nosed wannabe...)

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ..m3WE will reassure us, can also be dealt with using basic [email protected]
    I find 150 lbs of limp humanity slumped over the controls a bit disturbing, potentially interfereing with the grand ultimate fundamental memory checklist item #1: Aviate. (Type specific exceptions for the B-737-236A acknowledged)

    Maybe the air Bus auto pilot can disregard 'all' control inputs- a potential plus for the tactile feedback killer.

    Leave a comment:


  • elaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    That seems like a waste of sim time to me. In any sim scenario, you have a pilot flying and a pilot monitoring. If one pilot becomes incapacitated, you only lose the pilot monitoring.
    Uh, what? Are you saying you know in advance that the pilot that's going to expire is always the one monitoring?

    Okay yes I understand your point. Once the situation is identified and corrective action taken, you'll have a PF and no PM in the cockpit. But consider that in the BEA accident I reference above, only 19 seconds elapsed between when the first "inappropriate pilot action" took place and the a/c entered an unrecoverable stall. That's not much time for the PM to identify that there's a problem, gain an understanding of the nature of the problem, possibly deal with something like a person slumped over the controls, orient himself to the sudden change in role, and assume control of the airplane.

    For comparison, I was recently reading a report about a DC-8 accident in 1970. Due to a jammed elevator, the aircraft began rotating by itself at about 80 knots, the tail hit the runway at 91 knots (Vr was computed at 124 kt.), the plane lifted off, pitched upward until it stalled, and crashed back onto the runway with 11 deaths. In spite of there being a very clear problem (airplane not responding to elevator control) and a very obvious solution (cut power, hit the brakes), in the 13 seconds between when the plane began rotating and when it left the ground, the pilots did not take the appropriate corrective action. If anyone's interested, the report for that accident is here: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...ts/AAR7112.pdf

    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    I have a question: in this scenario is it permissable (or advisable) to have one of the cabin crew sit in the observer seat to run checklists with the remaining pilot? I think it is always good to have a pair of minds checking off the essentials and it would take some stress off the isolated pilot.
    That's actually a really interesting idea!

    Other things someone could do that would require little skill & training (although not none) would be watching for traffic and tuning the radios.

    I can't remember what it's called but I think there's a program out there for people who are not pilots but frequently fly in light planes. It teaches them the basics of what to do if the pilot is incapacitated. Perhaps they could create something along the same lines for FAs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by elaw View Post
    2) Do pilots ever train for this (the other pilot becoming incapacitated) in the simulator?
    That seems like a waste of sim time to me. In any sim scenario, you have a pilot flying and a pilot monitoring. If one pilot becomes incapacitated, you only lose the pilot monitoring. This increases the workload for the pilot flying but doesn't impede his ability to fly the plane. AFIAK the SOP is simply to divert to the nearest serviceable airport and request medical services.

    The danger lies in the potential for something unexpected to arise that involves CRM procedure and now must be improvised by a lone pilot. That increases the risk of pilot error but, as 3WE will reassure us, can also be dealt with using basic airmanship in most cases where pilot error does not play a fatal role. And in most jets these days, there is ECAM or EICAS to help you along...

    I have a question: in this scenario is it permissable (or advisable) to have one of the cabin crew sit in the observer seat to run checklists with the remaining pilot? I think it is always good to have a pair of minds checking off the essentials and it would take some stress off the isolated pilot.

    Leave a comment:


  • elaw
    replied
    Let me throw out two thoughts unrelated to each other but hopefully pertinent here...

    1) Am I the only one who suspects in some cases, particularly years ago when social norms were different, that some accidents attributed to "pilot incapacitation" could actually have been pilot suicide? BEA 548 comes to mind immediately, but I've seen a few others where pilots took sudden definitive action with no obvious cause that resulted in a crash and it was blamed on nebulous medical issues.

    2) Do pilots ever train for this (the other pilot becoming incapacitated) in the simulator?

    Leave a comment:


  • jfarango
    replied
    And that's not the only reason to have two pilots in a cockpit, when things get messy, and you have abnormal-emergency situations, being alone there isn't fun at all.

    Leave a comment:

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