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Shaheen B734 misses runway at Lahore

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  • Shaheen B734 misses runway at Lahore

    POV video of the landing and evacuation:



    AvHerlad reports:

    ouched down on soft ground left of the runway, crossed a taxiway causing both main gear struts to collapse, both main gear struts separated, and the aircraft skidded on its tail to a stop
    And offers this map:



    I fail to make a mental picture of how this happened. Why did they miss the runway? How did they end so far down the runway? (or the side of it)

    Perhaps some hint is in here:

    Lahore features a primary runway 18L/36R of 11,024 feet/3,360 meters, runway 36R features an ILS that is currently being upgraded to become CAT IIIb capable
    So perhaps they attempted a CAT IIIb approach and it lead the plane to the wrong spot (a-la Die Hard???). I don't get it. And anyway, the visibility doesn't look so bad such as the pilots would not have had the runway in sight at least some seconds before touchdown to realize that they were going to miss it.

    I am puzzled.

    Read the full AvHerald report here:
    http://avherald.com/h?article=48ec2e81&opt=0

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

  • #2
    Looks like idiots flying an airplane to end up where they did in visibility hovering around 1 mile...

    Comment


    • #3
      ...let me also offer up the wild haired parlour speculation that had they stayed on the runway, they would have zoomed off the end at a pretty good clip and maybe had approach light structural stuff tearing into the plane and passengers and AA-1191 Little Rock types of damage, injuries and death...

      ...perhaps a small miracle that they went off the side, busted the gear out and scraped the belly.

      As for explanations (can't wait for the final report), I'll lump it into one of those "tunnel vision" crashes....

      10-zillion replications of break out, land and stop in all sorts of weather and runway lengths and winds and not always on the fixed distance marker and not always on the centerline...

      ...just a little too relaxed and a little too mundane doing what they always do and just don't process a number of hints that they are too far down and too far off center.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #4
        .....and yet again some of the dozy bastard passengers risk everyone's lives by grabbing their cabin baggage.

        Words really do fail me !
        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
          .....and yet again some of the dozy bastard passengers risk everyone's lives by grabbing their cabin baggage.

          Words really do fail me !
          Sorry, but during that 45 second delay when the crew decides if the risk of sprained ankles is less than the risk of being burned to a crisp and as the passengers calmly queue up for the slides (that take 90 more seconds to handle their allotment of passengers, Evan and I might grab our laptops.

          Seriously- if there's no fire, and like the airline's really gonna hustle to get your your carry on's after everything is secure.....NOT.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            All that I can say is that anyone who stops to grab luggage in front of me during an evacuation is going to wind up with size 11 footprints on the back of their head.
            Not having the airline get your possessions returned to you for sometime is infinitely preferable to being dead.
            Don't give me all that rubbish about its safe enough to retrieve possessions before evacuation if there's no fire. The difference between no fire and fire is a split second....and you don't know how many split seconds there are between a no fire and death dealing fire situation.
            The Shaheen aircraft ripped its gear off and slid along on its belly. In that belly are things called fuel tanks. NO ONE ON THAT AIRCRAFT KNEW IF THEY WERE RUPTURED OR NOT ! Just one little spark and......BOOM !
            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
              The Shaheen aircraft ripped its gear off and slid along on its belly. In that belly are things called fuel tanks. NO ONE ON THAT AIRCRAFT KNEW IF THEY WERE RUPTURED OR NOT ! Just one little spark and......BOOM !
              Well, not "BOOM" exactly, and if sliding down a runway isn't spark enough...

              I wouldn't go for the overhead except for my coat, but my 'under the seat in front of me' laptop is coming with me unless there's a fire.

              If I'm near the rear exit I might also grab a beer and some snacks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                Well, not "BOOM" exactly, and if sliding down a runway isn't spark enough...

                I wouldn't go for the overhead except for my coat, but my 'under the seat in front of me' laptop is coming with me unless there's a fire.

                If I'm near the rear exit I might also grab a beer and some snacks.
                The landing gear was torn. The landing gear is attached to the wing spar and while they (gear) are designed to fail in a way that the fuel tank is not ruptured, some times it is, be it by the gear failing to fail in the prescribed way or by some rod or strut puncturing the tank (both these things happened in the British Airways 777 accident short of Heathrow runway). And the airplane skidded mostly above grass, not above asphalt. And the pool of fuels starts to form once the airplane stops.

                Sorry but I agree with Brian.
                Also, you criticize the pilots every time they deviate from the prescribed procedure but you are happy to knowingly do it?

                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  The landing gear was torn. The landing gear is attached to the wing spar and while they (gear) are designed to fail in a way that the fuel tank is not ruptured, some times it is, be it by the gear failing to fail in the prescribed way or by some rod or strut puncturing the tank (both these things happened in the British Airways 777 accident short of Heathrow runway). And the airplane skidded mostly above grass, not above asphalt. And the pool of fuels starts to form once the airplane stops.

                  Sorry but I agree with Brian.
                  Also, you criticize the pilots every time they deviate from the prescribed procedure but you are happy to knowingly do it?
                  Well, let me elaborate.

                  First of all... If I'm near the rear exit I might also grab a beer and some snacks.
                  Fixed. (In case that wasn't an obvious ironic reference to a certain JetBlue 'hero' slide-puncher)

                  Secondly, in any event where the fuselage is not ripped apart, upside down, sinking or immediately on fire, there is going to be a delay between when the plane stops and when the evacuation is called. I need two seconds to grab my small laptop bag from under the seat. At that point I am probably still waiting for the evacuation call.

                  Thirdly, if the situation is obviously urgent (fire, smoke, jet fuel fumes, water ingress) I am right out of there in the straightest line possible. If, however, we are left standing in the aisle while all the Joe Breadsticks are ambling toward the nearest exit, and I have an obvious 5 seconds to kill, and the weather calls for it, I suppose I might go for my coat in the overhead. I don't want to survive the evacuation just to die of exposure while the airport bureacracy gets around to sending out some buses and if a ground fire did erupt around the plane it might provide some added protection.

                  Fourthly, I would absolutely not go for my bag in the overhead or anything that might impede the evacuation or endanger the slide (the laptop bag is going on my lap).

                  Fifthly, If I see any asshat taking a smartphone video instead of concentrating on the evacuation, I will swat it out of their hand. This is something that should never been posted on the internet and subjected to lounge-chair criticism and shaming by people who have no idea what it's like to be there.

                  Sixthly, I think there is a clear distinction between draconian cabin rules and smart cockpit procedure.

                  Seventhly, I know that if I leave my laptop in the plane there is a good chance it will disappear or be destroyed and the airline will point to their unconscionable terms and conditions when they tell me straight-faced that they are not responsible for the cost of replacing it.

                  Eighthly, I find myself agreeing with 3WE, which makes me wonder if I am wrong about all this...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    Well, let me elaborate.

                    First of all... If I'm near the rear exit I might also grab a beer and some snacks.
                    Fixed. (In case that wasn't an obvious ironic reference to a certain JetBlue 'hero' slide-puncher)

                    He went out the front exit, though...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      Eighthly, I find myself agreeing with 3WE, which makes me wonder if I am wrong about all this...
                      You love black and white.

                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      ...I think there is a clear distinction between draconian cabin rules and smart cockpit procedure...
                      I love gray.

                      Originally posted by 3WE
                      ...TWA 800 doubters aren't all nut jobs...
                      That does not preclude us from both thinking that procedures are important, that warm temperatures and a spark in the center tank probably took down TWA 800, and that it's fun to razz Brian about the reality that it might be 60+ seconds for the engines to spool down, before the crew calls for evacuation, 90 more seconds till you hit the door, and oftentimes never before the plane completely goes up in flames.

                      Like you, I might pause and evaluate the situation* and if the plane is truly on fire, I won't have my bag and Brian can try to run me down all he wants, but he ain't gonna cut in front of me.

                      *Indeed, look at Evan deviating from rote procedure and investigating the gray areas (although that's a very impressive, 8-step memory decision tree you wrote)...
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Sorry, but during that 45 second delay when the crew decides if the risk of sprained ankles is less than the risk of being burned to a crisp and as the passengers calmly queue up for the slides (that take 90 more seconds to handle their allotment of passengers, Evan and I might grab our laptops.

                        Seriously- if there's no fire, and like the airline's really gonna hustle to get your your carry on's after everything is secure.....NOT.
                        I am going to go a step further and say that people coming off of aircraft with luggage should be fined/arrested. Congrats on wining the survivor lotto, but you endangered your life and the life of others with your greed and stupidity - here's a nice incentive to not be an idiot!
                        - You are intelligent enough to think "Hmm, 'bout the only thing that is going to fit down this slide with me, safely is my laptop bag and me...so here we go!".
                        - The flight attendant is probably thinking "If that thing only slices into the slide - we're done for at that exit. If it's a fire - it might be the only viable exit we have...".
                        - The other passenger behind you (or, on this flight is thinking - "Maar Daala! But! Let me not forgot that 50 lbs of Jalebi that I stuffed into the overhead bins for my sister's-nephew's-brother's-daughter's-sister's-cousin's wedding that I bought in Lahore for only $20.73! It was a steal, eh?) and so decides to Santa-Clause it - bundle and all, down the slide too.

                        All of you are thinking about your risks versus your needs. Only one of you is being ethical and thinking of the larger good and interestingly, that person has the authority to tell you what to do, per FAA regulations (and most other aviation regulations around the globe). It has to stop somehow. Between idiots filming their selfies instead of listening to safety announcements; https://www.youtube.co/watch?v=LrqbJUaPQek and instead of actually paying attention in an emergency, and then on to others who decide baggage is a must have addition to smoke filled lungs; http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2...s-and-luggage/, it is only going to get worse.

                        I will tell you this - I would willingly fling small people down the slide if it meant me getting out of that plane faster. I'll enjoy the view from the bottom, thank you!
                        Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Well, let me elaborate.

                          First of all... If I'm near the rear exit I might also grab a beer and some snacks.
                          Fixed. (In case that wasn't an obvious ironic reference to a certain JetBlue 'hero' slide-puncher)


                          Where were you flying in your EK suite going to? You certainly were not on a U.S. domestic flight. Speaking of B6, the F/As there can teach the IRS about how to get their money. Your butt would not grace that slide before some B6 F/A will be waiting for you to sign your life away on that Ipad. 'You will be emailed your receipt! Thank you!'.

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Secondly, in any event where the fuselage is not ripped apart, upside down, sinking or immediately on fire, there is going to be a delay between when the plane stops and when the evacuation is called. I need two seconds to grab my small laptop bag from under the seat. At that point I am probably still waiting for the evacuation call.
                          Fine. Just a laptop bag. Ever flown to the Caribbean? Africa? Asia? As a Caribbean flyer myself - the definition of 'just one bag' is broadly different dependent upon the person. But, your laptop bag - maybe fair enough.

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Thirdly, if the situation is obviously urgent (fire, smoke, jet fuel fumes, water ingress) I am right out of there in the straightest line possible. If, however, we are left standing in the aisle while all the Joe Breadsticks are ambling toward the nearest exit, and I have an obvious 5 seconds to kill, and the weather calls for it, I suppose I might go for my coat in the overhead.
                          Can I propose that we from now on call all aircraft fatalities Joe Breadsticks? Screw John Does. "Today, there was an incident at XYZ airport. There were 100 survivors and luckily, no Joe Breadsticks."

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          I don't want to survive the evacuation just to die of exposure while the airport bureacracy gets around to sending out some buses and if a ground fire did erupt around the plane it might provide some added protection.
                          How did you know you were going to end up either at ATL or being handled by DGS?

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Fourthly, I would absolutely not go for my bag in the overhead or anything that might impede the evacuation or endanger the slide (the laptop bag is going on my lap).
                          You're going to be the only one...

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Fifthly, If I see any asshat taking a smartphone video instead of concentrating on the evacuation, I will swat it out of their hand. This is something that should never been posted on the internet and subjected to lounge-chair criticism and shaming by people who have no idea what it's like to be there.
                          You just ruined it for the Internet! Are you proud of yourself?

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Sixthly, I think there is a clear distinction between draconian cabin rules and smart cockpit procedure.
                          An Oxymoron is defined as...

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Seventhly, I know that if I leave my laptop in the plane there is a good chance it will disappear or be destroyed and the airline will point to their unconscionable terms and conditions when they tell me straight-faced that they are not responsible for the cost of replacing it.
                          I'm beginning to think that you are onto something here. Leaving the laptop might endanger first responders as the battery in the laptop might cause a risk. So, taking it, and keeping it cool is the safe thing to do!

                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Eighthly, I find myself agreeing with 3WE, which makes me wonder if I am wrong about all this...
                          Or maybe, it's the feeling of being so right!
                          Whatever is necessary, is never unwise.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This gets better and better...
                            the Civil Aviation Authority of Pakistan confirmed the authenticity of a leaked document presenting laboratory analysis of the captain's blood alcohol and lactate levels being above acceptable limits.
                            http://avherald.com/h?article=48ec2e81&opt=0

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AA 1818 View Post
                              Two separate, line by line, dissections of and objections to Evan's and 3WE's comments about carry on's and fire evacuations, sprinkled with mild personal attacks about our selfishness.
                              Good one.

                              In reply:

                              1) Oh my, some people had some analytical discussions about emergency evacuations and the fact the people ARE taking carry ons with them. We must not think, we must be robots. We can give no consideration to: the status of the plane, the status of the engines, the status of the fire (including non existent). Nor can we consider the cockpit's ability to assess the situation of the engines (way in the back) from the cockpit (way in the front)

                              Folks are examining multiple sides of the issue?

                              Talking about it on a discussion forum?

                              We can't have that!

                              I'm sure glad that no one ever discussed stall training and procedures, because, really the right way to address stalls are to never ever get into them in the first place, and if we just focus on airspeeds and attitudes and power immediately-responding to stick shakers and how rarely (almost never) does a pilot let his airspeed decay to anything close to an actual stall speed, it makes perfect sense that training focus overwhelmingly on prevention and recovery from imminent stalls, not recovery from actual stalls, nor reviewing the things that can cause stalls (like turning into a tailwind).

                              2) You might want to study more internet discussion forum activity. There's a wide range of posts. Sometimes folks will weave a little sarcasm and truth as they discuss things. Never mind, Evan is always 100% serious.

                              3) Last but definitely not least. Please be aware that this forum is primary populated by weird photographers, outsider-laymen-wanna-be's, and entertainment-seeking trolls. Comments here do little to change people in charge of aviation safety, nor the vast numbers of traveling public. The odds that Evan and I will get to actually consider whether we will take our carry on down the slide for real: Just about zero. The odds that one less person leaves his laptop on the next emergency evacuation because of AA 1818's post: Also just about zero.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment

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