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Cowboy, Improvisational, Stick and Rudder Airmanship...

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  • Cowboy, Improvisational, Stick and Rudder Airmanship...

    ...and a cool landing. fairly rough air, 6-degree slope, plants it on the piano keys!

    Cockpit looks snug, is it really a Citation or is it a 150?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUmfLRepTUI
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

  • #2
    If it's a 150 it's the first twin engined one I ever saw !!
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      ...and a cool landing. fairly rough air, 6-degree slope, plants it on the piano keys!

      Cockpit looks snug, is it really a Citation or is it a 150?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUmfLRepTUI
      Really? I see some textbook CRM: excellent communication, briefling, checklists, memorized procedure alongside practiced flying skills (very active on the throttle on short final). Where's the cowboy?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
        If it's a 150 it's the first twin engined one I ever saw !!
        ...and I don't see those "tin-can-looks-like-a-wierd-forward-wing-spar" air vents...still, it looks kind of snuggly in there.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Really? I see some textbook CRM: excellent communication, briefling, checklists, memorized procedure alongside practiced flying skills (very active on the throttle on short final). Where's the cowboy?
          Dog poop...BAM...dead center! (And yep 50% of my post was an attempt to snag you by dragging a line behind my fishing boat, the other 50% is that that landing was fun to watch).

          Indeed, excellent communication, memorized procedures, repeated (pretty much as they always are on every flight), double check that no one is landing when they take off, double check the runway heading vs. the assigned runway, good stuff...

          BUT

          They are making a 6-degree approach to a rather short runway and landing short of the normal touchdown point.

          Do you see any discussion of the approach, landing techniques, target speeds, call out that I'm landing short, be ready for sink-rate alarms and we'll disregard them- we will instead target 1000 FPM, etc?

          (I recognize that they hit a thing or two regarding the landing, but again, a "briefing" for the fact that they are doing a steep, short landing doesn't happen, whereas all the other mundane every day checklist stuff does keep them busy)

          Yeah, they did all the checklists well, and followed the Boy Scout CRM handbook, but had essentially no discussion of a slightly critical landing (which is one of the most dangerous phases of flight- is it not?)

          This is exactly the point I try to make that too much focus on procedure to the detriment of common sense and fundamentals (which describes you as well as this crew) can easily get in the way of safety.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            If it's a 150 it's the first twin engined one I ever saw !!
            Coming from you I would have expected a "I have ever seen"

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              Dog poop...BAM...dead center! (And yep 50% of my post was an attempt to snag you by dragging a line behind my fishing boat, the other 50% is that that landing was fun to watch).

              Indeed, excellent communication, memorized procedures, repeated (pretty much as they always are on every flight), double check that no one is landing when they take off, double check the runway heading vs. the assigned runway, good stuff...

              BUT

              They are making a 6-degree approach to a rather short runway and landing short of the normal touchdown point.

              Do you see any discussion of the approach, landing techniques, target speeds, call out that I'm landing short, be ready for sink-rate alarms and we'll disregard them- we will instead target 1000 FPM, etc?

              (I recognize that they hit a thing or two regarding the landing, but again, a "briefing" for the fact that they are doing a steep, short landing doesn't happen, whereas all the other mundane every day checklist stuff does keep them busy)

              Yeah, they did all the checklists well, and followed the Boy Scout CRM handbook, but had essentially no discussion of a slightly critical landing (which is one of the most dangerous phases of flight- is it not?)

              This is exactly the point I try to make that too much focus on procedure to the detriment of common sense and fundamentals (which describes you as well as this crew) can easily get in the way of safety.
              All that said, if the approach was unusually steep, and/or if sink-rate warnings in short final were expected and were to be disregarded, I think those facts should have been briefed.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                (I recognize that they hit a thing or two regarding the landing, but again, a "briefing" for the fact that they are doing a steep, short landing doesn't happen, whereas all the other mundane every day checklist stuff does keep them busy)

                Yeah, they did all the checklists well, and followed the Boy Scout CRM handbook, but had essentially no discussion of a slightly critical landing (which is one of the most dangerous phases of flight- is it not?)
                Point taken, but as I understand it this runway requires a steeper than normal approach, so perhaps it was already anticipated by both crew.

                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                This is exactly the point I try to make that too much focus on procedure to the detriment of common sense and fundamentals (which describes you as well as this crew) can easily get in the way of safety.
                Point not taken. I still don't advocate procedure to the detriment of fundamentals no matter how much you insist that I do.

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