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40-Year Anniversary of the Tenerife Airport Disaster

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  • #16
    Originally posted by elaw View Post
    Yeah but you're describing two completely different scenarios!


    Gabriel told a story of a crew who was told "line up and wait" and apparently gave the official procedural read back to ATC...and yet they proceeded to take off, so that's where I see the similarity.

    ...and that it needs to be 'line up and wait because there's a plane crossing downfield' is my point (much like 'here's the runway that's rarely in use, and although it's kind of lame, I just looked and no one is on final approach either')...a little extra thought with regard to situational awareness.

    That contrasted with brief 'mindless' code words..."clear-clear"...."line up and wait-line up and wait"...

    ...and not saying we totally muck up the radio waves with Edith Bunker discussions, but maybe make the cockpit less sterile with some genuine discussion of the situation...

    ...AND (sorry)...

    Fully aware that 99.9999% of the time the crew may indeed say an extra word or two to be situationally aware.

    ...AND (hopefully the last AND, sorry a second time)...

    Fully aware that 0.000[who knows how many more zeros]1% of the time this may not fix a damn thing...

    ...JUST...

    Venting about mindless procedural operation vs. mindful procedural operation and wanting procedure to inspire mindfulness as opposed to being just something you utter...

    ...and they lived happily ever after.

    Thanks.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      Evan, honest mistakes do happen.
      Gabriel, I don't think you can simply call that an honest mistake. Unless the crew heard something they mistook for a takeoff clearance, this is negligence, not error. We've witnessed a lot of errors that can be made under pressure, fatigue and confusion but awaiting takeoff clearance before rolling is FUNDAMENTAL to being a pilot, and with two pilots monitoring ATC and thus aware of the instruction to wait and one of them reading back the instruction to wait, how could you proceed to mistakenly roll without clearance?

      I never suggested any more extreme defensive procedures or 'buttons' to prevent this. It should be: wait for clearance, readback clearance, announce takeoff and go. There are already two lines of defense there. That should cover it.

      This is just just negligence and lax discipline while commanding a dreadful responsibility. We can't let just anyone do this. A well-trained pilot rolling a airliner on a field with an active intersecting runway without clearance goes against the strongest of commercial pilot instincts. These guys shouldn't be flying at all. They're not pilot material.

      Unless there's more to the story...

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Gabriel, I don't think you can simply call that an honest mistake. Unless the crew heard something they mistook for a takeoff clearance, this is negligence, not error. We've witnessed a lot of errors that can be made under pressure, fatigue and confusion but awaiting takeoff clearance before rolling is FUNDAMENTAL to being a pilot, and with two pilots monitoring ATC and thus aware of the instruction to wait and one of them reading back the instruction to wait, how could you proceed to mistakenly roll without clearance?
        In the same way that someone can tell you "turn left in the next corner", and you can reply "ok, next left", and right we go.
        Do the same thing one million times, and once or twice you can do it stupidly (but honestly) wrong.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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