Originally posted by 3WE
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--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostSo Dad, who broke the rules...
Originally posted by ATLcrewYou don't buy tickets as a "family" you buy tickets for each individual person. So, no, it's not "their" seat.
Originally posted by GabrielSo they didn't have that ticket or seat anymore available for Todd (or Junior) even in the ignorance of the contract that names cannot be changed?
This would change EVERYTHING we have been discussing here.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostYou do buy tickets for a family. Four of them. So it is their seat. I know that's not what the one-sided, airline-written, contract of adhesion rules say but...
This would change the ethics of the thing, but would still not excuse the way it was handled.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Evan View PostIf you haven't got it yet, what I'm saying is that the rules are complex, unobvious and unfair.
Again, do you ever fly at all?
I am currently on a ground delayed United flight, as a standby AND two folks were no shows.
No shows and stand bys happen on the vast majority of flights...hard to remember last time I didn't hear a gate agent calling for someone.
Did you see my comment about having to initial all the paragraphs on the COC.
Yeah, there's a lot of sneaky stuff. Needing to be checked in ain't one of them.Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
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Ok, here's how I think it should have gone:
FA: I'm sorry sir, that seat has been assigned to another passenger. Your child is going to have to ride in your lap (assuming the child is under two-years of age).
DAD: What?! I paid for this seat and my kid is going to sit there!
FA: Well, our system indicated that this seat was unoccupied and we've issued it to a standby passenger. The system would not allow us to do that if the seat was already assigned. Do you have a boarding pass for this seat?
Scenario A)
DAD: Yes, here it is.
FA: Ah, ok, our mistake. Mr Standby, I'm sorry, there's been an error and we don't have this seat available after all.
~ END
Scenario B)
DAD: No, they didn't ask us to check in the infants, but I paid for four seats and got my seat assignments online.
FA: But the thing is sir, you must both purchase the seats and also check in each seated passenger during the check-in time or you forfeit the seat. We must do this to prevent flying empty seats due to no-shows and to accomodate our standby passengers.
DAD: Well, I'm sorry, but nobody told us that at the check-in.
FA: Well I'm going to have them check in the child then before we depart, but please be aware of this in the future. It will now delay us and inconvenience everyone aboard.
DAD: Alright, I apologize but you need to do a better job of informing people about traveling with children and check-in procedure.
FA: The information is on our web site but I will pass that along and hopefully it can be better explained.
FA: I'm sorry Mr. Standby, there's been a mix-up and the seat was already occupied.
Scenario C)
DAD: No, they didn't ask us to check in the infants and my older son, who was originally going to sit in that seat took an earlier flight. But I paid for four seats.
FA: Did your son purchase a new ticket then?
DAD: No, he just transfered his ticket to the earlier flight.
FA: Well, then, you see that one of the four tickets you purchased has already departed on that earlier flight. That means you have only three seats left on this flight.
DAD: Uh... yeah... well, I have my child here and I can't really leave him behind...
FA: How old is he?
DAD: 22 months.
FA: I'm sorry he's going to have to ride in your lap, as this seat is already taken by a paying customer. Surely, you can understand that.
-or-
DAD: 24 months.
FA: Hmmm, well he's going to need his own seat then. Here's what I'm going to have to do: I will make an exception and assign him this seat as a standby passenger, but the airline may have to bill you for it later. That's the best I can do here. Or you must leave the plane. Your choice, but you are holding up our departure so I need to know your decision now.
Beyond that, if the father still refused to cooperate, I would leave for a moment, come back with some other airline-uniformed lackey and tell them I must check in jr. as standby but they WILL be billed for the seat and that remaining on the flight constitutes agreement on this.
That is not at all what happened here.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostOk, here's how I think it should have gone:
FA: I'm sorry sir, that seat has been assigned to another passenger. Your child is going to have to ride in your lap (assuming the child is under two-years of age).
DAD: What?! I paid for this seat and my kid is going to sit there!
FA: Well, our system indicated that this seat was unoccupied and we've issued it to a standby passenger. The system would not allow us to do that if the seat was already assigned. Do you have a boarding pass for this seat?
Scenario A)
DAD: Yes, here it is.
FA: Ah, ok, our mistake. Mr Standby, I'm sorry, there's been an error and we don't have this seat available after all.
~ END
Scenario B)
DAD: No, they didn't ask us to check in the infants, but I paid for four seats and got my seat assignments online.
FA: But the thing is sir, you must both purchase the seats and also check in each seated passenger during the check-in time or you forfeit the seat. We must do this to prevent flying empty seats due to no-shows and to accomodate our standby passengers.
DAD: Well, I'm sorry, but nobody told us that at the check-in.
FA: Well I'm going to have them check in the child then before we depart, but please be aware of this in the future. It will now delay us and inconvenience everyone aboard.
DAD: Alright, I apologize but you need to do a better job of informing people about traveling with children and check-in procedure.
FA: The information is on our web site but I will pass that along and hopefully it can be better explained.
FA: I'm sorry Mr. Standby, there's been a mix-up and the seat was already occupied.
Scenario C)
DAD: No, they didn't ask us to check in the infants and my older son, who was originally going to sit in that seat took an earlier flight. But I paid for four seats.
FA: Did your son purchase a new ticket then?
DAD: No, he just transfered his ticket to the earlier flight.
FA: Well, then, you see that one of the four tickets you purchased has already departed on that earlier flight. That means you have only three seats left on this flight.
DAD: Uh... yeah... well, I have my child here and I can't really leave him behind...
FA: How old is he?
DAD: 22 months.
FA: I'm sorry he's going to have to ride in your lap, as this seat is already taken by a paying customer. Surely, you can understand that.
-or-
DAD: 24 months.
FA: Hmmm, well he's going to need his own seat then. Here's what I'm going to have to do: I will make an exception and assign him this seat as a standby passenger, but the airline may have to bill you for it later. That's the best I can do here. Or you must leave the plane. Your choice, but you are holding up our departure so I need to know your decision now.
Beyond that, if the father still refused to cooperate, I would leave for a moment, come back with some other airline-uniformed lackey and tell them I must check in jr. as standby but they WILL be billed for the seat and that remaining on the flight constitutes agreement on this.
That is not at all what happened here.
FA: What is the date of birth of this beautiful kid?
DAD: mm/dd/yy (what happens to mean he is not under 2)
FA: Do you have ticket in his name? (let alone check him in)
DAD: No, but...
Scenario X1
... I had this ticket for my teen son, for whom I just bought another ticket in an earlier flight, so actually I have 2 tickets for the teen and zero for the toddler.
FA: Ok, I don't know what you had in mind when you didn't buy a ticket for this cute kid 2 weeks ago when you bought all the tickets, but I am afraid your kid will not be able to fly, which probably means at least one of the adults will like to leave the plane with him.
DAD: But I bought 2 tickets!!! I paid for it!!!
FA: Yes, but 2 of the tickets were for the same person. You don't have a ticket for this kid and it would be illegal that he flies on your lap being not under 2 years old. Your teen didn't show up for this flight, not only that, but nobody checked in for that seat, (of course, because he is in another airplane) so we sold this seat to another paying passenger that may very well have his own reasons to take this flight and not wait. I cannot transfer your teen's ticket to this kid, the system just doesn't have this option because transfers or name changes are not allowed. You cannot return or cancel your teens ticket because the last time to do so is 10 minutes before the scheduled departing time, which is well overdue by now. The best we could do is sell you another ticket at the current price for this kid, but that would be only if the other pax that just bought this seat concedes to changer his ticket for the next flight.
Scenario X2:
... no, I bought only 3 tickets for 5 persons: One for me, one for my wife, and one for the teen (that I changed for the earlier flight). I never bought a ticket for the 1-year old that I plan to take on my lap, or for my 2-years-old that I don't know how I expected him to fly.
FA: Well, I don't know what you had in mind when you didn't buy a ticket for this cute kid 2 weeks ago when you bought all the tickets, then the only thing we can do now is ask the other paying pax that just bought this seat if he wants to change it for the next flight and sell you a ticket for this kit at current price.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostScenario X:
DAD: mm/dd/yy (what happens to mean he is not under 2)
FA: Do you have ticket in his name? (let alone check him in)
DAD: No, but...
Scenario X1
... I had this ticket for my teen son, for whom I just bought another ticket in an earlier flight, so actually I have 2 tickets for the teen and zero for the toddler.
FA: Ok, I don't know what you had in mind when you didn't buy a ticket for this cute kid 2 weeks ago when you bought all the tickets—
DAD: Well, originally he was going to fly on my lap—
FA: He can't do that if he is older than 24 months.
DAD: How am I supposed to know that?
FA: It's right there on the 24th page of the COC, accessible via the tiny link on the bottom of the page next to the very big "BUY NOW' button.
DAD: Brilliant. But I didn't buy the ticket on your website.
FA: Tough titties.
DAD: Well, anyway, I also bought this seat so he can sit there now.
FA: No he can't because I cannot transfer your teen's ticket to this kid, the system just doesn't have this option because transfers or name changes are not allowed. You cannot return or cancel your teens ticket because the last time to do so is 10 minutes before the scheduled departing time, which is well overdue by now. The best we could do is—
DAD: Am I the only actual free-thinking human being left on this planet?
FA: I'm calling the stormtroopers...
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Originally posted by 3WE View Post[b]Question to Tee Vee: What does the law say about transparency? The COC is available, but no longer on the back of many 'tickets' like Bobby thought we still used...and it's definitely fine print and an obscure link, and plenty of crap in there that they want to keep low key... they want to keep it low key, and they make a deliberate effort to keep it low key.
here's another fine example of how they obscure things. go to aa.com and look for a link below right below "Departure Date" that says "Changed bag fees for Colombia and Venezuela." click on it and tell me if you can figure out what the changes are. good luck!
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Originally posted by Evan View PostFA: What is the date of birth of this beautiful kid?
DAD: mm/dd/yy (what happens to mean he is not under 2)
FA: Do you have ticket in his name? (let alone check him in)
DAD: No, but I had this ticket for my teen son, for whom I just bought another ticket in an earlier flight, so actually I have 2 tickets for the teen and zero for the toddler.
FA: Ok, I don't know what you had in mind when you didn't buy a ticket for this cute kid 2 weeks ago when you bought all the tickets—
DAD: Well, originally he was going to fly on my lap—
FA: He can't do that if he is older than 24 months.
DAD: How am I supposed to know that?
FA: It is a Federal regulation, you know... The Law... I mean, how do you know that you should not take someone's else property without their permission, or cross a red light? Same stuff. Other than that, we ask you when check in (in our website or in the automated check-in kiosks in the airport) if you will be travelling with lap children, and if you answer "yes" the site or kiosk will ask you how many and their dates of birth. I wonder what did you answer there...
DAD: I checked in in person, face to face with one of your agents, and she didn't ask me if I was traveling with lap children.
FA: Didn't she ask you, or didn't you tell her, who will be traveling today?
DAD: Well, I don't know, maybe, but...
FA: Do I show you the way to the exit or you can figure it out by yourself?
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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It seems like one thing that could be pertinent and I'm surprised hasn't been discussed is whether tickets are considered to be sold to a person or for a person.
Scenario: my wife and I are traveling somewhere and I buy tickets for both of us. So the airline has sold one ticket to me that is also for me, and sold another ticket to me that is for my wife. In my case I'd think the situation is clear: I gave the airline something of value (money) and they owe me something of value (transportation) in return. In my wife's case, again money was given in exchange for transportation, but who do they owe the transportation to? Her, because her name is on the ticket? Or me, because I'm the one that gave them the money?
In the case of most business transactions I think the latter would be the correct answer. And if that's the rule, the guy we're discussing should be entitled to X seats if he paid for X seats, regardless of who sits in them. But knowing how effed-up the airline business is, perhaps they (with the government's blessing) play by different rules.Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
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Eric, the principle is called 3rd party beneficiary, which in your example, was your wife. however, with tickets, the 3rd party has more than the usual amount of rights. bottom line is, when it comes to tickets, he who pays has ZERO rights.
it comes down to this: no one sues them--for the most part. i have sued aa 3 times and won 3 times. all for small stuff and only twice on my own behalf (more for principal than money). all 3 times they had no real defense. they operate under the correct presumption that no one will sue them, much like a bully in a school yard. when someone finally does challenge them, they back down/lose.
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Originally posted by elaw View PostIt seems like one thing that could be pertinent and I'm surprised hasn't been discussed is whether tickets are considered to be sold to a person or for a person.
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostFixed.
FA: What is the date of birth of this beautiful kid?
DAD: mm/dd/yy (what happens to mean he is not under 2)
FA: Do you have ticket in his name? (let alone check him in)
DAD: No, but I had this ticket for my teen son, for whom I just bought another ticket in an earlier flight, so actually I have 2 tickets for the teen and zero for the toddler.
FA: Ok, I don't know what you had in mind when you didn't buy a ticket for this cute kid 2 weeks ago when you bought all the tickets—
DAD: Well, originally he was going to fly on my lap—
FA: He can't do that if he is older than 24 months.
DAD: How am I supposed to know that?
FA: It is a Federal regulation, you know... The Law... I mean, how do you know that you should not take someone's else property without their permission, or cross a red light—
DAD: Common sense. Age-old moral traditions. Basic survival instinct. Intuition...
FA: And why can't you use that to know the rules in this case?
DAD: Because your rules are non-sensical and counter-intuitive.
FA: Other than that, we ask you when check in (in our website or in the automated check-in kiosks in the airport) if you will be travelling with lap children, and if you answer "yes" the site or kiosk will ask you how many and their dates of birth. I wonder what did you answer there...
DAD: I checked in in person, face to face with one of your agents, and she didn't ask me if I was traveling with lap children.
FA: Didn't she ask you, or didn't you tell her, who will be traveling today?
DAD: She didn't ask. I didn't think to tell her. I didn't think that it mattered because I had enough seats on my itinerary.
FA: Do I show you the way to the exit or you can figure it out by yourself?
DAD: I don't know. Are the exits placed in an intuitive location or are they under the floor behind a contract of carriage?
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Originally posted by Evan View PostFixed and repaired.
DAD: Common sense. Age-old moral traditions. Basic survival instinct. Intuition...
I will be perfectly fine with a system where the airline would never ever ever give your seat to someone else (so nobody needs to worry about showing that one showed for the flight), and the airline would never ever ever return you a cent of a purchased ticket. You purchased a seat in a flight and the seat will be there for you whether you use it or not.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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