The United debarcle

[Evan]

Do you have a spare 777 handy?

Airplanes rarely crash, but do they break a lot. Unless you're a podunk airline with a handful of airplanes, you actually have a civic responsibility to provide reasonable contigencies for breakage. What do I mean by reasonable? Having a suitable replacement aircraft positioned within 8 hours, I guess. I don't know exactly how it works, whether through available company aircraft and/or combining/rescheduling/cancelling other flights or through pre-arranged agreements with charter or leasing firms... I really don't know, but there has to be some reasonable contingency because this IS going to happen.

The passengers on this flight were still sitting in Goose Bay 24 hours after landing there. Then, instead of being carried onward on a suitable replacement aircraft, they were simply returned to their starting point.

What I see here is an airline (an industry) running at maximum capacity (maximum profits with very little margin for contingency) operating on a wing and a prayer. I see the predictable results of a monopoly, where there is no penalty for disregarding your customers.

If there isn't a regulation covering this, there ought to be. Just like the one limiting how long an aircraft can sit on the tarmac after boarding. That regulation was (finally) created out of respect for human dignity at the expense of industry. It's called social evolution.

[Gabriel]

[QUOTE=Evan;676964]I see the predictable results of a monopoly, where there is no penalty for disregarding your customers.[quote]
If the customer doesn't care* for disregarding the customer, why would anybody else do?

You talk about monopoly but this is in fact the result of competition and deregulation, which is the opposite.

First we had the open skies policy that opened the market and routes for all airlines.
Then the low cost kicked in. When we were in the boom of the low cost, the legacy airlines attempted to differentiate themselves with service: "We offer meals, we have better legroom, we don't charge for checked bags or to pcik your seat, we don't charge for an exit row, a window seat, an aisle seat, or just a regular seat that is more to the front" etc, etc, etc. That almost broke them and they learned the lesson. So they became low cost too, and now they are making money.

Having extra planes and extra crews for spare, offering more legroom (less seats per plane), offering meals, checking bags for free, all have either a cost or a loss of revenue associated with them (or both), and the customer, the public, is not willing to pay for that.

* "Care" as in saying "I am willing to pay more for that" instead of googling "show me the cheapest flights from A to B sorted cheapest first" and then clicking on the first one on the list, regardless what airline or ticket category it is.

[Evan]

Having extra planes and extra crews for spare... have either a cost or a loss of revenue associated with them (or both), and the customer, the public, is not willing to pay for that.

Pay to play. And yes, the customer IS willing to pay for that. People want the best deal. If that deal is required to include certain things, and is thus more expensive, it's still the best deal.
In a race to the bottom, we need to be sure the bottom isn't below the ground. That's what regulations are for.

And it is the result of monopoly. In a competitive market, operators have to concern themselves, not just with revenue, but with market share. When you are no longer sharing the market, and have only revenue to worry about, you no longer aim to please. You aim to squeeze.

[ATLcrew]

Airplanes rarely crash, but do they break a lot. Unless you're a podunk airline with a handful of airplanes, you actually have a civic responsibility to provide reasonable contigencies for breakage. What do I mean by reasonable? Having a suitable replacement aircraft positioned within 8 hours, I guess. I don't know exactly how it works, whether through available company aircraft and/or combining/rescheduling/cancelling other flights or through pre-arranged agreements with charter or leasing firms... I really don't know, but there has to be some reasonable contingency because this IS going to happen.

Why 8 hours and not 6.3?

[ATLcrew]

That would make more sense. Also, if they were working on the door, that might mean it was kept at least partly open.

Or not.

[3WE]

Why 8 hours and not 6.3?

Indeed.

They should have called Buffalo Joe to dispatch some DC-3's and an Electra...

[Evan]

Why 8 hours and not 6.3?

Up to six hours flying time plus two hours to get their shit together. Fair?

[ATLcrew]

Up to six hours flying time plus two hours to get their shit together. Fair?

Might be fair, but doesn't sound particularly possible. You'd need more "backup" planes than flying ones. Not only that, you'd need to keep those backup planes moving all the time, so they can STAY within 6 hours of whatever plane they're meant to replace. An airplane that's within 6 hours of Goose Bay is not within 6 hours of Keflavik or of Shannon etc. So, basically, you'll need at least three aircraft standing by to backup every transoceanic flight. Civic duty or not, I don't see that happening.

[Evan]

Might be fair, but doesn't sound particularly possible. You'd need more "backup" planes than flying ones. Not only that, you'd need to keep those backup planes moving all the time, so they can STAY within 6 hours of whatever plane they're meant to replace. An airplane that's within 6 hours of Goose Bay is not within 6 hours of Keflavik or of Shannon etc. So, basically, you'll need at least three aircraft standing by to backup every transoceanic flight. Civic duty or not, I don't see that happening.

Keeping in mind that these kinds of diversions do not happen very often (but still often enough to have a plan in place). I don't know enough about dispatch and partnerships and charter and wet-leasing, etc., but I think it seems reasonable that major airlines could have a contingency plan in place involving some or all of these assets for such rare occasions. From the time the crew informs them of the mechanical issue to the time a replacement aircraft arrives, with a plan to work from, shouldn't take 14 hours or more. Not when the passengers are stuck on the airplane.

Granted they might have held out on the belief that the door was repairable for some of those hours. Still, I would be feeling a bit marooned by hour 10.

[TeeVee]

no customs officer on the overnight... well, i guess there is no way to corral these people in a small area of what is already a small airport. lack of thinking/caring on the part of some government turds.

[elaw]

lack of thinking/caring on the part of some government turds.

Or maybe thinking it doesn't make sense to pay a customs person to sit around all night twiddling their thumbs when there are no scheduled flights.

Do you think it is sensible to have a customs officer stationed at every airport on the planet 24/7/365 because a foreign airliner might experience a problem and have to land there?

[elaw]

Meanwhile in Atlanta: https://www.npr.org/2019/01/21/68710...a-private-gran
...just to provide a little balance.

[3WE]

***government turds.***

I have heard too many war stories on Canadian customs/border control. They got free health care and all, but the border agents suck.

We should ban all flights over Canadian airspace.

I also agree with Evan and suggest United purchase a magic wand to affect repairs and rescue aircraft.

And El Presidente del Unitedo Vuelolines could go to a big box store, buy awesome snacks and alcho-bevs, and charter Dick Karl to whiz him and some other execs up there to distribute snacks and hang out in the crippled 777 with the Pax.

[Gabriel]

no customs officer on the overnight... well, i guess there is no way to corral these people in a small area of what is already a small airport. lack of thinking/caring on the part of some government turds.

Come on, guys, there is something called "on call". You can have a couple of customs / immigration officers on call whenever there is no physical presence in the airport (not always the same couple, of course).

[3WE]

Come on, guys, there is something called "on call". You can have a couple of customs / immigration officers on call whenever there is no physical presence in the airport (not always the same couple, of course).

Yes, the country of Utopia has exactly that. It's located right next to Utubia where they are still flying 707's and 720s with JT-3s.

Here's another movie from Utubia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyeAiQTTFPE of the eighth busiest airport in the world. Lots of great aeroplanies from true DC-9's to 767's and maybe some J-31's and 41's and ATRs and Saabs...