The United debarcle

[TeeVee]

I was talking about PARKING on an “active taxiway”

I get your argument about speed differences at cruise vs taxi, BUT it’s not an apples to apples and is invalid.

I have experienced a few SURPRISE, brake slams on taxi likely to put someone on the floor (and possibly kissing an arm rest on the way down). I don’t think I’ve ever experienced SURPRISE turbulence that would put someone on the floor (or ceiling)- it happens, but much more rarely than a luggage cart driver shooting in front of an airplane.

The buckled-during-taxi policy is appropriate for passenger safety, as well as preventing lawsuits from greedy lawyers.

As for the case of departure holds and no gates- it’s too frequent to have 30 and 45 minute lockdowns with the seatbelt sign on and FAs bitching over bathroom runs.

PARKING proves my point even more!!!

i've taken well over 2,000 flights on all sorts of aircraft in over 50 countries. never once have i experienced a brake slam while taxiing. i have, however, experienced CAT several times, including one episode enroute to LHR from MIA that actually spilled my drink. pity the alcohol got wasted. but can't say that anyone has claimed to be hurt.

i'm guessing if you head on over to aviationherald.com and search the number of brake slam incidents involving injuries and compare them to CAT injuries, you will change your tune as to my point.

[brianw999]

Seriously though, unless you have a bladder disorder, you are somewhat responsible for managing your bodlly functions within at least an hour-long period. There's a good chance that, once you board a plane, it's going to be a while before you get a chance to use the lav, so definitely go before you do that. I think I learned that when I was three. When I get on a plane, I'm good for at least three or four hours. But still, after a two-hour delay, they need to accomodate people.

Trust me, I do try to mitigate my toilet needs. I try to plan when I take my medication to avoid the “need to go” urges occurring during awkward times. Every so often though, the drugs take over and give me a couple of minutes warning that I have absolutely no control over.
One day you will be 70 yrs old, disabled and on several drugs designed to keep you alive for a bit longer. That will be when you start to realise what what my life is like.

[3WE]

i'm guessing if you head on over to aviationherald.com and search the number of brake slam incidents involving injuries and compare them to CAT injuries, you will change your tune as to my point.

Your tendencies for invalid arguments are interesting. The argument isn't CAT vs. Taxi- its Belted vs. Non Belted.

When surprise brake slams (that you have never seen) happen, Most everyone is belted. That might make taxi look safe as you assert, but the belts confound it.

If surprise CAT happens AND folks are unbelted- THEN there are injuries.

With taxi USUALLY being a short time, the seatbelt policy is reasonable. I can hear your colleagues in Court- Expert Witness, Mr. 3BS, has personally witnessed 3 brake slams, the risk is real, reasonable policy would have folks belted for the short periods of taxi. You should have known that injuries like Mrs. Clutzo's broken wrist were inevitable.

Should folks be belted all the time in flight? Kinda so, since 'the policy' calls for you to be loosely belted in when the seatbelt sign is off and you are not using the lav. With cruise potentially being hours and turbulence forecasts, and the fact that it USUALLY builds up, make it just safe enough to allow folks not to pee their pants...but, as you say...folks do get hurt when there's a surprise.

It's not apples to apples.

[Evan]

When surprise brake slams (that you have never seen) happen, Most everyone is belted.

Why would they ever happen? It's an airport taxiway, where airplanes are adequately spaced and moving cautiously, not rush hour traffic tailgating on the 405.

If a crew ever has to slam on the brakes during taxi, there is a much bigger problem here than the lav policy.

[3WE]

Why would they [panic stops] ever happen? It's an airport taxiway, where airplanes are adequately spaced and moving cautiously, not rush hour traffic tailgating on the 405.

If a crew ever has to slam on the brakes during taxi, there is a much bigger problem here than the lav policy.

Another indication that you may not participate in the real world nor ride airplanes to any meaningful degree.

About 5 minutes watching guys drive luggage carts will provide valuable insight.

Maybe if you ever take an airplane ride, see if you can do some rampie watching.

The bike ride still a good suggestion, but possibly too high-level of a view for this specifically.

However, indeed, you should get to work on regulations and procedures for taxi and baggage train operators, there is much to be done.

[ATLcrew]

PARKING proves my point even more!!!

i've taken well over 2,000 flights on all sorts of aircraft in over 50 countries. never once have i experienced a brake slam while taxiing.

I guess it ain't never happened then, nor is it ever going to, seeing as how Your Amazingness has somehow avoided it these many a year.

[ATLcrew]

Another indication that you may not participate in the real world nor ride airplanes to any meaningful degree.

About 5 minutes watching guys drive luggage carts will provide valuable insight.

Maybe if you ever take an airplane ride, see if you can do that.

The bike ride still a good suggestion, but possibly too high-level of a view for this specifically.

However, indeed, you should get to work on regulations and procedures for taxi and baggage train operators, there is much to be done.

Nor has he been on the 405...

[3WE]

I guess it ain't never happened then, nor is it ever going to, seeing as how Your Amazingness has somehow avoided it these many a year.

I'm repeating- I've taken a hell of a lot fewer flights, predominately US, and have experienced roughly three. Cowboy idiocy rampies? That's my guess- although maybe one was adjacent to the runway and ATC might have said, "Hey, hold up, your sequence has changed"? (Again, rampant speculation).

Did 'ABS' activate?- No. Was there a symphony of creaking plastic and groaning brakes and some landing gear recoil? Yes.

By no means was it a near-death experience, but conversely we wouldn't want to put grandma on the floor and bruise something- THEN your airline winds up in the United Debarcle thread at JetPhotos.

[Evan]

Nor has he been on the 405...

I hate to break it to you but I have squandered significant portions of my life both on the 405 and in the air, and while brake slams are not unusual amongst daydreaming LA drivers, I've yet to experience one in a large airliner taxiing at low speeds amongst other large airliners. Rather abupt stops (no greater than a typical subway ride), occasionally, but knock-you-off-your-feet stops, never.

But maybe you could tell us what might cause this to happen and isn't indicative of a larger problem that cannot be solved with lav policy (i.e. pilots not paying attention to the road, rampies not paying attention to the road, ground controllers not paying attention to the ground control, etc.)

[3WE]

...maybe you could tell us what might cause this to happen...

Maybe you can save us some time and read what I wrote. From ATL's comments, I think I may actually be somewhat in the ball park that excrement does sometimes transpire.

And remember, all the words matter: We don't want to knock Granny off her feet, nor anyone else with taxi typically being a short ride and baggage drivers not being as Pollyanna conservative as they are in your sheltered mind.

I'm sorry, but you and TeeVee (and me too) are NOT 'smarter' than the people who said, "seated and bucked for taxi."

I'm after the anything much over 15 minutes with the parking brake set, and the risk of CAT or taxi procedures are not particularly relevant.

[Evan]

I'm sorry, but you and TeeVee (and me too) are NOT 'smarter' than the people who said, "seated and bucked for taxi."

But we are smarter than the people who said, "no you can't use the lav" during a two-hour ground delay. Let's not forget what we are discussing (for once).

Certainly, there are brief periods of high-speed taxi where you don't want the passengers waltzing around, and during those times it is wise to say, "wait until we have finished taxiing". However, unless your flight plan includes a significant drive on the ground, that's not going to be two-hours, or even ten minutes. Aside from periods of high-speed taxi, I can't envision a likely scenario where a passenger is going to get jossled around more than they would on a typical subway ride. In all my years riding some of the worst subways on the planet, I've never seen anyone seriously injured from falling down during a typical subway ride.

So, yes, the 'seated at all times while on an active taxiway' rule requires some wiggle-room for human bodily functions. And I'm pretty sure it has that wiggle-room.

[Gabriel]

i've taken well over 2,000 flights on all sorts of aircraft in over 50 countries. never once have i experienced a brake slam while taxiing.

Well, I have perhaps 1/10th of those many commercial flights and I experienced a brake slam* at least twice that I can remember.
Actually, in one of those a person stood up ad started to reach the overhead bin when the FA came on the PA to say "we have not reached the gate yet, seat down" what the guy didn't and about 5 seconds later we had this brake "slam" that shoved him forward and stumble before recovering like 3 rows ahead before kissing the floor. I was waiting for the FA to say "I told you", what she didn't.

*Slam the brakes is perhaps not the best description. It was an abnormally brisk braking, stronger than the subway ones mentioned by Evan (where, by the way, you expect it to brake and you prepare for it by gripping the handrail, seat handles, or poles, that are there for a reason and that are lacking in an airliner). I agree with 3WE that it is important from a safety point of view to remain seated while taxiing. The seatbelt in this stage, however, is useless. No amount of braking will launch your butt forward sliding on the seat. I believe that the "technical"reasons for the seatbelts requirement during taxi has more to do with other "human factors", like forgetting to fasten it for take-off and being an "incentive" for the pax to remain seated while taxiing. I also agree (with all of you) that there is no reason to enforce a "nobody stands up (even not to visit the restroom)" policy when you are stopped on the taxiway for several minutes is stupid. You don't want everybody standing up and moving around because you WILL need everybody back in their seats again before starting to taxi again, but restroom exceptions are reasonable to say the least.

[3WE]

*Slam the brakes is perhaps not the best description. It was an abnormally brisk braking, stronger than the subway ones mentioned by Evan (where, by the way, you expect it to brake and you prepare for it by gripping the handrail, seat handles, or poles, that are there for a reason and that are lacking in an airliner). I agree with 3WE that it is important from a safety point of view to remain seated while taxiing. The seatbelt in this stage, however, is useless. No amount of braking will launch your butt forward sliding on the seat.

Yes, not a perfect explanation and you can always find a LOT more words to clarify it.

How about- Unexpected, sudden, firm braking, harder than one generally wishes to do and something that might make an ordinary standing person stumble and an occasional person fall, and which would tend to cause an FA to say "Woah" and grab a seat back in a demonstration of genius fundamental attendanpersonship.

Thank you for your data points that this does happen and that TeeVee seems to have lived a graced life of smooth braking during taxi and that Evan probably doesn't fly much.

[3WE]

Aside from periods of high-speed taxi, I can't envision a likely scenario where a passenger is going to get jossled around more than they would on a typical subway ride.

Your ability to 'envision a likely scenario' is very weak. At least one of my instances (and one of Gabieee's) was during a period of slow-speed taxi while literally turning towards and pulling into the gate.

Speculation as to why? Someone or some piece of equipment entered into the protected parking space space.

[TeeVee]

I guess it ain't never happened then, nor is it ever going to, seeing as how Your Amazingness has somehow avoided it these many a year.

right. so in your "career" as a pilot for how many years? how many times have you slammed the brakes while taxiing?