The United debarcle

[TeeVee]

Absolutely. An issue they caused, they know they caused, and they fail to address.

sorry gabe, this was caused by wall street--the great destroyer of quality and comfort.

[3WE]

sorry gabe, this was caused by wall street--the great destroyer of quality and comfort.

[Discussion over beer mode, not argument]

I disagree.

Seems to be it would be smart business to "lock" the seats upright.

I can't see where that is expensive to do.

It pays off in solving this festering issue.

Yeah, "the street" is ultimately behind it, but I lay 80% at the airlines who should fix what is broken (and can be cheaply fixed)

[Gabriel]

sorry gabe, this was caused by wall street--the great destroyer of quality and comfort.

What's the difference? The owners of the airlines are their shareholders.

[Gabriel]

it is pathetic. but, since the vast majority of pax choose to suffer in silence, we all get bent over. and the whole "vote with your wallet" thing is bullshit, since all the airlines are in lockstep with each other on removing creature comforts. most people think a standing only airplane will never happen. i on the other hand, think it will or something close to it. there is a reason companies have spent money developing standing seats--they believe at some point they will fly. all it will take is a few tests to show the faa that they are equally as safe as a real seat and voila! we are all screwed.

I hope these standing seats will not recline.

[brianw999]

Just a thought. Someone here said that if a seat can be reclined then you have the right to recline it.

But what if the person behind you has bone-on-bone knee osteoarthritis and the act of reclining your seat causes them pain ? Furthermore, if the person behind you then advises you that you are causing them pain and asks you to return your seat to the upright position in order to relieve their pain and you refuse to do so, are you then guilty of assault occasioning actual bodily harm ? In the U.K. that is an arrestable offence.
This is a situation that I am in. I fly fairly regularly in Europe and even dear old British Airways have reduced their seat pitch on their short haul airbuses to a maximum of 30”. I used to fly Club Europe to take advantage of the 34” seat pitch but BA have cut that seat pitch to 30” so the expensive club seat is no longer a benefit to me. They have apparently done this following a decision by Lufthansa to also cut club class seat pitch.
I’m off to the Canary Islands again in May. I’ve bought a 4” thick inflatable cushion to raise my butt off the seat and hopefully reduce the bend in my knees thus hopefully giving me a bit more clearance.
What really pisses me of with all these comfort arguments is the fact that farm animals on the way to the slaughterhouse are subject to better legal requirements regarding comfort than airline passengers.

[3WE]

Just a thought. Someone here said that if a seat can be reclined then you have the right to recline it.

But what if the person behind you has bone-on-bone knee osteoarthritis and the act of reclining your seat causes them pain ? Furthermore, if the person behind you then advises you that you are causing them pain and asks you to return your seat to the upright position in order to relieve their pain and you refuse to do so, are you then guilty of assault occasioning actual bodily harm ? In the U.K. that is an arrestable offence.

Noted.

-Someone also said, no one had EVER BEEN asked if it was OK to recline INTO their space.
-And someone said they HAD NEVER asked.

And I promise you I have never heard via the FA announcements (nor read in the seat pocket literature) that it was an arrestable offense in the UK.

Yeah sure- ignorance of the law is no excuse, but it's still a bullcrap play that we are supposed to know British law...kind of like the stereotypical cop with a Napoleon complex and bullying tendencies...knowledge is power, and since YOU don't know the law....I'm better than you.

C'mon everyone, I'm tired of these secret rules that supposedly govern all this.

Is it OK for the dude in front to recline into me without asking or isn't it. Can he be arrested?

Am I required to ask the person behind?

Just tell me (asking the airlines- not obscure forumites).

[Gabriel]

3WE, it is pretty common sense.

Say there is a public street. Do you have the right to drive on it? Yes.
Say that there is a small child in a tricycle crossing that street. Do you still have the right to knowingly drive on that public street where you otherwise would have the right to drive even if that means a clear and present danger of running over the kid?

If I am telling you that reclining your seat causes me physical harm and you still do it, then you are knowingly and intentionally causing physical harm and you should know that that makes you a jerk unworthy of living in a society (and hence flying in a public airplane) even if you are so ignorant that you don't know that knowingly and intentionally causing physical harm is illegal (unless it is self-defense) and so idiot that you cannot foresee that it would reasonably be illegal even if you don't know it for a fact.

[ATLcrew]

Just a thought. Someone here said that if a seat can be reclined then you have the right to recline it.

But what if the person behind you has bone-on-bone knee osteoarthritis and the act of reclining your seat causes them pain ?

What if your very existence causes the guy in front of you pain? I exaggerate, but you get my point, how much can other be reasonably expected to accommodate your ailments, especially when said others had no part in causing those ailments? Here's a thought: take a cruise ship. Or fly first class.

[Gabriel]

Or fly first class.

He can't because he needs a loop belt which are not allowed in the seats with airbag seatbelts.

And don't compare the mere existence with a voluntary act to do something that will only increase your comfort while knowingly causing not just the detriment of someone's else comfort but worse, physical suffering and pain.

I don't know what blame does Brian carry regarding his knee conditions and "size". But I have no control whatsoever over my height (and while I am higher than most, I a am not an outlier either. Being in about the 1% percentile you can expect a few of us on average in every flight.

[ATLcrew]

And don't compare the mere existence with a voluntary act to do something that will only increase your comfort while knowingly causing not just the detriment of someone's else comfort but worse, physical suffering and pain.

I'll rephrase: what if the guy seated in front of Brian has herniated discs and will be in great pain if he does NOT recline? Why is Brian's pain the only one that matters?

[Gabriel]

I'll rephrase: what if the guy seated in front of Brian has herniated discs and will be in great pain if he does NOT recline? Why is Brian's pain the only one that matters?

It is not. In that case we have a more complicated conflict. Perhaps reseating one of them would fix it.

[Evan]

What about when the FA's finish the meal service and tell everyone to close their windowshade on those overnight long haul flights? I like to have the window open, and people have those free eyemasks, but whatever, I comply. Then we all get to recline so that we can get some shuteye.

If EVERYONE reclines, nobody loses space. If the person behind me chooses not to recline at that point, tough titties man.

We don't need locks or morality lessons. We just need the FA's to tell us when we can and cannot recline.

[Evan]

Try this:

post the word

s l e e p

(without the spaces)

See what happens.

[Gabriel]

If EVERYONE reclines, nobody loses space.

Wrong. The distance between your knees and the back of the seat in front of you doesn't improve when you recline your seat, and in some newer seats it actually diminishes if you do.

[BoeingBobby]

All you guys that are bitching about leg room. Buy a G-5 and hire me to fly you around. Lots of leg room, eat what you ordered and no TSA! PM me for my resume.