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  • #91
    Some airlines do not advance book the last few seats. That way they can provide those seats to last minute flyers at higher prices. Only then do other booked seats, or boarders, get allocated or given to standby passengers.

    What I like about SW is that I almost always get on a earlier flight (as standby) rather than the one I booked at no extra charge (makes economic sense to the airline).

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
      In my working life only one airline tried to do just what you describe. They were all about the "warm'n'fuzzy" customer experience, mood lighting, FAs under 45yo and under 200lb etc etc. Said airline had a mighty hard time getting off the ground (pun fully intended), had an even harder time making a profit, and eventually got absorbed by another carrier.

      It's hard to regulate "dignity", especially when the consumer is more than willing to sell it for $5. Or even $4.
      That's the entire point of pricing regulation. Said airline couldn't compete because everyone else was racing to the bottom. People buy the cheapest flight, then complain about how nothing is included. This is because a) corporations have no respect for basic human dignity and b) people are sheeple, just frighteningly stupid for the most part.

      However, regulate pricing as I proposed and EVERY airline offering a dignified experience will be able to compete on a fair playing field, because regulation prevents the race to the bottom. Ticket prices will go up but ALL prices will go up and people will pay only a bit more when the hidden fees are removed from the bottom line.

      Or, you know, keep resisting the obvious.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
        ***I almost always get on a earlier flight (as standby) rather than the one I booked at no extra charge (makes economic sense to the airline). ***
        Yes...the plane is going anyway and it costs 'nothing' to give you that empty seat and maybe then you can sell your original seat at a higher price...win win, right?

        It sounds wonderful and would seem to make good sense.

        But, are you aware of the travel 'scam' where you purchase the cheapest fare of the day (during a slow time) and then standby on the high-priced flight at the busy time?

        Bean counters did some analysis (and not too many years ago, jet fuel was REALLY expensive and airlines were LOSING money in general)...and apparently they were losing big $ on this. It does not make economic sense to the airline.

        Plus, they are looking at every thing they do and 'how can the profit from it'. So, now we have pay for standby, pay for flexible fare, pay for seat pitch, pay for seat selection, pay for early boarding (and dibs on overhead space) and if you go CHEAP, you are screwed.

        Time out to ask what industry ISN'T looking at 'everything' and considering it's profit vs. cost? Example: I'm not an MBA but I have bought non-refundable reservations at Holiday Inn Express...AND have seen hotel over booking too! We could take this thread WAAAY off topic and list crappy policies in all sorts of industries.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          ...That's the entire point of pricing regulation...Or, you know, keep resisting the obvious...
          As much as I want to be on Evan's side, ATL also has a decent handle on the obvious.

          One painful, obvious issue is that overbooking happens EVERY day on EVERY airline and is scientifically engineered to do really amazing things, and make some money for airplane drivers, and give volunteers some reasonably OK 'cash' prizes.

          And the second obvious issue is that there's a small percentage of human beings with mental issues...

          People that have no business being postal workers, police, rampies, rent-a-cops, gate agents, or even pilots or doctors. In some ways the whole United thing can be laid on policemen who were unfit, who violated procedures. And then secondarily on a gate agent who didn't know a lot of rules...hard rules like that they did not have the right to bump people, and a number of soft rules, like- finding alternative flights for your Republic crew, that there's a time and place to go above $800, and that EVEN IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIE AND BUMP SOMEONE, you sure as hell don't let them get on the plane.

          The system works when you follow fundamentals and procedures...but we will always have that human element...they forget that on a 737-236A, the Cessna 172-worthy procedure for an approach in a thunderstorm...Watch the instruments, and perch your thumb over the click-clack-paddywhack give a man a plane button...and they forget some nit-picky-Tee-Vee-legal-fine-print on the COC.

          The system is finely honed and works kind of decent, until us people screw it up. Turn it ALL over to HAL...the flying, AND the boarding procedure.

          Final point- I can't stand to totally side with ATL...I would come back with telling ATL that even though you are not 'resisting the obvious', 1) This still kind of sucks and 2) do YOU have any suggestions, or is it the normal, 'this is what it is, deal with it'...

          Your management (that's a general term) screwed you over big time years ago with the regional-scam...if the current price war/monopolistic systematic kinda-sorta-screw-over inspired a few more laws for your management to jump through, I'd feel a little poetic justice.

          Obviously, management will pass the costs on to the consumer (and maybe squeeze your pilot contract a tad)...but, I will side with Evan that I at least THINK I'd pay a little more for some 'reasonable and fair customer service'.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            EVEN IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIE AND BUMP SOMEONE, you sure as hell don't let them get on the plane.

            The system works when you follow fundamentals and procedures...
            How is that going to help the poor woman in Canada missing her once-in-a-lifetime trip? She got 'bumped' at the gate.

            The system doesn't work at all. Because it's not a system at all. It's corporate anarchy.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              *** In some ways the whole United thing can be laid on policemen who were unfit, who violated procedures. And then secondarily on a gate agent who didn't know a lot of rules***
              Look at me talking 'procedures' (sudden light-headedness).

              As I regain my composure, perhaps it's that the employees (with management inspiration) have forgotten the basic fundamentals of customer service, as customer service procedures have been pounded upon them.

              Procedure: If you have a crew that needs to get somewhere and the price hits $800, then you need to bump a passenger.

              Forgotten fundamentals- Check for other flights for your crew. Don't board the plane till you are done bumping people. And the biggie, the person bought a ticket, paid money, was assigned a seat, and allowed to sit on it...perhaps that counts for something.

              Ok, I feel better now.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                ***The system doesn't work at all.***
                As much as I joke about absolute statements, it would appear that you are the one resisting the obvious.

                The system does work...every day.

                It's been asked if you have ever taken an airline flight...or exactly how rare it is that you take one.

                The odds are near 100% that if you fly somewhere, you will hear the words, "we may have an overbooked situation and are looking for volunteers". Maybe not on your flight, but you'll hear it at an adjacent gate, or as you stroll the concourse between flights or to/from your first/final flight.

                I hate it as much as you do, but (try to be scientific)...the system works (it's actually pretty fascinating and beautiful if you look at it with an 'engineering mentality'). (Admittedly, a relatively small, pre-calculated % of the time it doesn't work, but hey, those scientific engineers calculated it out incredibly well and really close.)

                What's that one liner- "If it didn't work, they wouldn't do it".
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • #98
                  "Today's" incident.

                  Uht Oh... (and hello AA1818 )

                  This one is great! We see a passenger directly threaten a flight crew...(and no use of zip ties).

                  We have conjecture that the FA may have crossed over a fine line of physically 'assaulting' a passenger. (AND, it's a young mother...oooo, bad PR)

                  We have a double-wide baby stroller...betting that doesn't work on the aisle, "completely under the seat in front of you" NOR fit in the overhead.

                  We have video...(that does not catch the initial incident). (too bad the FA doesn't have a body cam).

                  We have the airline doing VERY prompt and significant damage control (is this an admission of wrong doing?...or is it more that right and wrong doesn't matter...only IMAGE?)

                  AND we see preemptive, situation-controlling threats from the FA too.

                  All sorts of beautiful, woven gray area.

                  There's all sorts of subtleties here to judge from the keyboard and generate parlour talk. (Total speculation, but should there not be a 'talk nice phase' with an accurate discussion, followed by, OK, last chance before I switch to our COC and my right to tell you to leave the plane now, or I call security with instructions to physically remove you if you do not go voluntarily...(again, said with calm and legal correctness))

                  https://gma.yahoo.com/american-airli...pstories.html#

                  We also have what I'll call inconsistent customer service: Have you ever noticed a flight crew doing major back flips for a disabled person, or even a person with small children? The suddenly we have a double-wide stroller, and the back flips switch to off and we (allegedly) pull the stroller away with force...I'm sure it's all in the COC, which is not printed on the back of the lady's printed-at-home boarding pass.

                  And nothing to do with overbooking!

                  Indeed, systematic, engineered, predictable screw-overs (synergized by human factors, of course), procedures AND the lost fundamental of customer service.

                  Bring on the regulations (even though the system works most of the time).


                  ***Breaking update: No zip ties for passenger...but a $25,000 fine 'is threatened' to passenger who tried to defend the poor-defenseless woman. Perhaps the answer lies not in the 'right and wrong' of 'the law' but perhaps a threatened $25,000 boycott of AA if they press charges. [Special note: I am not sure WHO is threatening the $25,000 fine...possibly not_AA, but FA groups citing the laws...] Question to Tee Vee: are the words 'if you tried that with me' a threat- or a non-binding, indirect/not direct at all, hypothetical statement.
                  Last edited by 3WE; 2017-04-24, 20:11. Reason: Passenger fine update
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #99
                    y'all wanna be REALLY pissed? how's this: executive platinum members in aa's aadvantage program are GUARANTEED a coach seat on any domestic flight. so, if i decide i want to fly on a completely sold out flight and am willing to pay, i can bump another pax just because. good for me, bad for everyone else.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TeeVee, above
                      y'all wanna be REALLY pissed?...
                      HA! I remember you saying that a while back!

                      Originally posted by 3WE, in post #87 View Post
                      ***By the way- is there not even a hushed policy that an 'elite frequent flier' can purchase a last minute ticket and bump a 'serf passenger' who got a cheap, early reservation?***
                      Sorta doesn't seem particularly 'right' in the basic scheme of things, but apparently, it's profitable to some degree.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • Possibly slightly off topic but connected so to speak....
                        I was flying home to the UK from Orlando and was a few pounds overweight on the hold baggage, for a few pounds read 5lb. The airline (Monarch) wanted to charge me a stupid fee of around 100$ stating that it was calculated on 1% per pound of the first class fare. I thought that was a rather clever trick given that Monarch was an all economy seat charter airline that doesn't have any first class seats.
                        I agreed to pay but told them that they would have to bill me at home as I didn't have any money left after having spent it all in America. They said they could accept a credit card but I didn't have one in those days. (True)
                        You'll have to bill me.
                        Then they said they would accept travelers cheques but I didn't have any (True).
                        You'll have to bill me.
                        Then they said they would accept a debit card but I didn't have one. (Actually, not strictly true but it would have put me overdrawn, but they didn't know that).
                        You'll have to bill me.
                        All this arguing took 30 minutes to check in two people so the clerk asked us to move aside which I refused to do on the grounds that we had not checked in fully. Clerk went to find a manager. Manager arrived, said that 5 lbs was just over two kilograms and really wasn't worth arguing about, handed me our boarding cards and wished us a pleasant flight.

                        Sometimes, if you dig your heels in you win. I heard later that the clerk was wrong anyway. She had read 5lbs but calculated it as 5 kg. We never did get billed either.
                        If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                          ...but, I will side with Evan that I at least THINK I'd pay a little more for some 'reasonable and fair customer service'.
                          This may very well be true for you and Evan, but doesn't seem the case for most people. Case in point: WalMart.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                            Possibly slightly off topic but connected so to speak....
                            I was flying home to the UK from Orlando and was a few pounds overweight on the hold baggage, for a few pounds read 5lb. The airline (Monarch) wanted to charge me a stupid fee of around 100$ stating that it was calculated on 1% per pound of the first class fare. I thought that was a rather clever trick given that Monarch was an all economy seat charter airline that doesn't have any first class seats.
                            I agreed to pay but told them that they would have to bill me at home as I didn't have any money left after having spent it all in America. They said they could accept a credit card but I didn't have one in those days. (True)
                            You'll have to bill me.
                            Then they said they would accept travelers cheques but I didn't have any (True).
                            You'll have to bill me.
                            Then they said they would accept a debit card but I didn't have one. (Actually, not strictly true but it would have put me overdrawn, but they didn't know that).
                            You'll have to bill me.
                            All this arguing took 30 minutes to check in two people so the clerk asked us to move aside which I refused to do on the grounds that we had not checked in fully. Clerk went to find a manager. Manager arrived, said that 5 lbs was just over two kilograms and really wasn't worth arguing about, handed me our boarding cards and wished us a pleasant flight.

                            Sometimes, if you dig your heels in you win. I heard later that the clerk was wrong anyway. She had read 5lbs but calculated it as 5 kg. We never did get billed either.
                            Never mind all that. Orlando without a credit card, I want to hear more about that.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                              This may very well be true for you and Evan, but doesn't seem the case for most people. Case in point: WalMart.
                              Damn...I hate it when facts get in the way, and your expletive handle on reality! I threaten you with shrubberies!

                              You know, you can't even buy a good ole Playmate cooler or decent lawn sprinkler there...instead there's a cheap(er) substitute- with some likelihood of breaking in the first few uses. When's THAT congressional hearing?
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                                As much as I joke about absolute statements, it would appear that you are the one resisting the obvious.

                                The system does work...every day.
                                Oh yeah, for them it does. Or rather, the system would appear to work for them, except that it isn't a system, it's the absence of a system. There is no system for assuring in advance that no flight is overbooked and that all deadheading employees are booked ahead of time. That is what's obvious here. So, lacking such a system, they merely 'oversell', hoping that somehow ( via a 'procedure' involving underpaid, stressed out gate agents pleading with irate customers) it will all work out, magically, forever.

                                Until one day, inevitably, someone becomes mad as hell and isn't gonna take it anymore. Then who loses? The guy? Oh hell no. The brand loses. The brand, which is built up through very expensive 'brand messaging' and 'brand experience', suffers a very damaging bit of 'brand erosion' and it will require a heap of 'brand investment' to regain that lost 'brand equity'. Some of that loss will be felt in lost revenues but a lot will be felt in investor aversion, as a 2-3 point drop in share prices wipes hundreds of millions of dollars off the company valuation, and that will be felt by every employee with stock included as part of their compensation.

                                So. great system. Punishes the passengers. Punishes the employees. Devaluates the company. Disgraces society.

                                But otherwise it seems to work...

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