Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lear 35 down approaching Teterboro

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Lear 35 down approaching Teterboro

    Looks like some kind of departure from controlled flight. Impacted a residential area resulting in a fire and destruction of buildings and vehicles. No casualties reported on the ground, but I imagine this will trigger another discussion about that neighboring threat...

    According to CNN, this is the 53rd fatal Learjet 35 accident since 1977.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/15/us...o-plane-crash/

  • #2
    Purest of preliminary, unsubstantiated speculation: Lear's are known for PIO, and if you get to within (or beyond) 1/4 of a mile of the Airport and then crash a plane, with no 'obvious' distress call at this point...

    Of course, I would NEVER get myself into a PIO, although I had an old rear-wheel drive Toyota Corolla wagon that got real nasty if you started swerving for fun on a gravel road...the fishtails really seemed to amplify and I had some wide eye moments.

    How do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?
    Les rčgles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

    Comment


    • #3
      how do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?
      ...or in Portuguese? We once had a specialist here at JP for the Portuguese language.

      Carlstadt NJ, that's much nearer to Teterboro than I am to DUS. But the 06 at TEB is only 6,000 ft , so, nothing which I'd think about. Sully also only needed a few seconds to avoid TEB, in an A320. But in a Learjet?

      A Lear 36A theoretically only needs 2,900 ft (900 m) for a perfect landing. They should've made it.

      Good that only the captain and the F/O were on board. Bad that both died.. only 1 nautical mile away from the TEB 06? That's hard.
      That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
      The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
      And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
      Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Looks like some kind of departure from controlled flight. Impacted a residential area resulting in a fire and destruction of buildings and vehicles. No casualties reported on the ground, but I imagine this will trigger another discussion about that neighboring threat...

        According to CNN, this is the 53rd fatal Learjet 35 accident since 1977.

        http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/15/us...o-plane-crash/

        1973 - 1994 738 35 & 36's built. As of January, 2007, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board database lists 19 fatal accidents for the 35/35A, and two for the 36/36A.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          Purest of preliminary, unsubstantiated speculation: Lear's are known for PIO, and if you get to within (or beyond) 1/4 of a mile of the Airport and then crash a plane, with no 'obvious' distress call at this point...

          Of course, I would NEVER get myself into a PIO, although I had an old rear-wheel drive Toyota Corolla wagon that was harder than hell to straightened out if you started playing around fish-tailing on a gravel road...how do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?
          Pilot Induced Oscillations (PIO) - for those of us who quite rarely sit in the left seat of a Lear.

          Ach Herrje. Ob das dieses Mal gut geht?

          New York State or NYC, both are good for so much. Calspan is a professional provider for Lear 35/Lear 36A training, which exactly includes maneuvers to avoid PIO. Thus, I assume that the Calspan crew includes Lear 35/Lear 36A flight instructors.

          I wasn't aware that a Lear 35 is prone for PIO, but as I said earlier, I'm still learning a lot. That indeed does not mean that the TEB accident is already solved.
          That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
          The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
          And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
          Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

          Comment


          • #6
            I always say that I am a service oriented human bein, so.. Have a look (in German, but I translate):

            PIO, explained by the de wiki

            "Insbesondere wenn die Steuersysteme des Luftfahrzeugs nur mit Verzögerung auf die Kommandos des Piloten reagieren, ..."
            In English: Especially if aileron, rudder or the throttle quadrant of an a/c do only react with response time to the input of one of the pilots, ...

            Hm. I should ask a B744/B748i flight instructor, but isn't that a phenomenon that occurs in almost all jets? The bigger the jet the more preparation time you need? I know that a B744 needs
            ALOT of preparation before "she" is ready to pass the t.o.d. point...

            And also the two Lear 35 jet engines do not react as quick as a Baron 58... or do they.

            As we hadn't been on board it sometimes seems easy to explain phenomenons. RIP, you young pilots. Lear 35 or CR9 pilots often are not older than me.

            Is anyone able to publish the age of the two men in the Lear 35 cockpit?

            PS: Imho, in German there is one very short word, only a little bit longer than PIO: überziehen. Wow. That seems to be something that can happen by reflex. You try to gain alt, and you pull, but you forget that ALL a/c - not only jets - lose speed,
            the longer you pull the slower the a/c gets.
            That's the reason why I've NEVER used vnav in my B744. At least three times during a flight you should really feel how "she" reacts: during t/o, during step climb, and during descent. A/P is off in my B744 when that happens.

            And it is indeed a phenomenon when you pull and "she" takes off.
            Last edited by LH-B744; 2017-05-16, 00:55. Reason: Überziehen
            That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
            Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sully, and I didn't understand it until I watched "his movie", always tried to explain another problem.

              208 seconds? As far as I remember that was the time in which Flight Captain C. Sullenberger had to
              a) take off
              b) gain alt, and the A320 was successful even after the loss of all engines
              c) see the geese and perceive that there is no way to avoid contact, the A320 will definitely make geese fricassee, at alt 3200
              d) perceive that all engines remain silent after the geese fricassee
              e) avoid TEB in a now sailing A320 after you turned off all frequencies
              f) be so keen and transform an A320 into a ship and save "all souls on board? - Yes, all 155." Which again is not only brilliant, and it deserves a Golden Star for Sully the Movie,
              but also the real Flight Captain Sullenberger deserves a Golden Star with a Diamond, and that's an opinion which I don't have all to often. Not either all too many men save 155 lifes in an a/c after the loss of all engines.

              Sully really deserves more than only the respect of one rather young semipro aviation enthusiast.

              Time is always short or very short in a jet. And I often had the idea to try "the Sully" in my semipro B744 simulator. But you don't try something like that only for fun, don't ya. I haven't tried it until today, and most probably I'll fail, as btw ALL persons failed who until today tried it: US Air A320 flight instructors, Airbus A320 aircraft engineers, nobody was able to reach TEB within 208 seconds.

              But in a Lear 35, with all engines running? Hm. The recorders should solve that case. I expect that a Lear 35 has a FDR, right?
              That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
              The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
              And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
              Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                ...Sully really deserves more than only the respect of one rather young semipro aviation enthusiast...
                Do not lay praises on Sully where Gabriel might see it.

                Gabriel points out that his water landing, albeit adequate, was not super duper perfectly nailed.

                HOWEVER, he then points out that Sully's QUICK DECISION PROCESS was pretty impressive...

                ...but it's usually a much longer discussion.

                Les rčgles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                  And also the two Lear 35 jet engines do not react as quick as a Baron 58... or do they.
                  I've heard it said that if one of those engines fails and the other is abruptly throttled up, the Lear 35 has a quick spin reaction...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    I've heard it said that if one of those engines fails and the other is abruptly throttled up, the Lear 35 has a quick spin reaction...
                    Wow. Is this the first time in almost a decade that you quote me, and not vice versa? First of all, Thank You. I am not all to often quoted by men who I always consider to be
                    friendly, professional and interested in the solution of crimes/fatal accidents/incidents etc.

                    Since 2008, I think that also somebody here at JP asked me, if jet pilots always have an extra education by the BEA or the NTSB. That was also an honor for me. No, I don't have something like that, but I am interested, like you.

                    A quick spin reaction...
                    Now, I assume that a Lear 35 spins mainly around the aileron axis, after all what you've described so far. That indeed sounds quite fatal.
                    I don't wanna imagine that "my" tailfin on one very bad day shows to the ground, and not into the sky. Brr.

                    Sometimes I tend to be a little off topic, but this story fits. As long as I am an aviation enthusiast, especially with this home airport,

                    I've heard that CR7 and CR9 do taxi with only 1 engine, and if these, let's call them mini jets, used both engines, they almost take off while you try to stay on the twy..
                    They obviously have alot of power, for a jet that is less long than my nickname is high..

                    And, if you ask me, exactly due to that fact, I'd probably never give 100% thrust (or more) in a CR7. Not before an experienced Lear35/Lear36A or CR9 flight instructor had told me preflight, what the consequences could be.
                    That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                    The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                    And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                    Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This smells like your typical Piper PA-11 flying-club-class turn-to-final stall when tightening the turn because you are overshooting the extended centerline, especially if you come with a tailwind component in the base leg.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        This smells like your typical Piper PA-11 flying-club-class turn-to-final stall when tightening the turn because you are overshooting the extended centerline, especially if you come with a tailwind component in the base leg.
                        You have a track on this one?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          This smells like your typical Piper PA-11 flying-club-class turn-to-final stall when tightening the turn because you are overshooting the extended centerline, especially if you come with a tailwind component in the base leg.
                          Failure to:

                          -Monitor/maintain healthy airspeed.
                          -Recognize a moderately-relentless pull up
                          -Recognize the pattern of a steep, low altitude, low energy turn (and the 'synergy' of a crosswind requiring a tighter turn...)

                          Again?

                          (I know- AND am reminded that it might not be as obvious in a big, comfortable airplane versus cheap aluminum single engine crackerboxes).
                          Les rčgles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            You have a track on this one?
                            No, but...

                            The facts of the report show New York Approach Control cleared the aircraft for the ILS Runway 6, circle to land Runway 1, with strong northwesterly winds translating into a slight tailwind component as the aircraft tracked inbound on the localizer.
                            The Runway 6 ILS, circle to Runway 1 is a common approach to TEB, with aircraft normally leaving the localizer at the final approach fix nearly four miles from the end of the runway. In the May 15 accident, the Learjet remained on the localizer until less than a mile from the end of Runway 6 before starting a right turn to land on Runway 1. That would have potentially placed the aircraft less than 500 feet above the ground. Leaving the localizer so near the airport would have also required a tight turn, close to the ground just to reach the numbers of Runway 1.
                            As the Learjet began its right turn toward the landing runway, the full force of the wind now at its tail, would have increased its ground speed, pushing the aircraft toward the landing runway even faster. A turn of at least 130 degrees would have been necessary to give the pilot much of a chance for a smooth turn back to final. But with the strong tailwind, everything would have been happening very fast.
                            What we don’t know is how far south the Lear flew before it began the turn back to Runway 1. According to the NTSB report, a TEB Tower controller did report the airplane banked hard to the right in the turn south and that he could see the belly of the airplane with the wings almost perpendicular to the ground. The airplane then appeared to level out for a second or two before the left wing dropped, showing the entire top of the airplane. Other ground witnesses reported the airplane in a right turn with the wings in a high angle of bank, some noting the airplane's wings "wobbling" before the left wing dropped and the airplane descended to the ground.
                            http://www.flyingmag.com/teterboro-w...A0NDAzNDgwMQS2

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              Can you shed some light on how this circle to land is done here from the RWY 06 ILS? The only ILS 06 to visual 01 approach I can find involves breaking off the ILS in a right bank and then turning LEFT to final over Giant's Stadium. But, if I'm getting this right, the Lear was making a hard RIGHT turn to final when it lost control. Does that involve breaking off ILS and cycling right turns back to 01? That seems illogical to me.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X