Lear 35 down approaching Teterboro

[Evan]

This smells like your typical Piper PA-11 flying-club-class turn-to-final stall when tightening the turn because you are overshooting the extended centerline, especially if you come with a tailwind component in the base leg.

You have a track on this one?

[Gabriel]

This smells like your typical Piper PA-11 flying-club-class turn-to-final stall when tightening the turn because you are overshooting the extended centerline, especially if you come with a tailwind component in the base leg.

[LH-B744]

I've heard it said that if one of those engines fails and the other is abruptly throttled up, the Lear 35 has a quick spin reaction...

Wow. Is this the first time in almost a decade that you quote me, and not vice versa? First of all, Thank You. I am not all to often quoted by men who I always consider to be
friendly, professional and interested in the solution of crimes/fatal accidents/incidents etc.

Since 2008, I think that also somebody here at JP asked me, if jet pilots always have an extra education by the BEA or the NTSB. That was also an honor for me. No, I don't have something like that, but I am interested, like you.

A quick spin reaction...

Now, I assume that a Lear 35 spins mainly around the aileron axis, after all what you've described so far. That indeed sounds quite fatal.
I don't wanna imagine that "my" tailfin on one very bad day shows to the ground, and not into the sky. Brr.

Sometimes I tend to be a little off topic, but this story fits. As long as I am an aviation enthusiast, especially with this home airport,

I've heard that CR7 and CR9 do taxi with only 1 engine, and if these, let's call them mini jets, used both engines, they almost take off while you try to stay on the twy..
They obviously have alot of power, for a jet that is less long than my nickname is high..

And, if you ask me, exactly due to that fact, I'd probably never give 100% thrust (or more) in a CR7. Not before an experienced Lear35/Lear36A or CR9 flight instructor had told me preflight, what the consequences could be.

[Evan]

And also the two Lear 35 jet engines do not react as quick as a Baron 58... or do they.

I've heard it said that if one of those engines fails and the other is abruptly throttled up, the Lear 35 has a quick spin reaction...

[3WE]

...Sully really deserves more than only the respect of one rather young semipro aviation enthusiast...

Do not lay praises on Sully where Gabriel might see it.

Gabriel points out that his water landing, albeit adequate, was not super duper perfectly nailed.

HOWEVER, he then points out that Sully's QUICK DECISION PROCESS was pretty impressive...

...but it's usually a much longer discussion.

[LH-B744]

Sully, and I didn't understand it until I watched "his movie", always tried to explain another problem.

208 seconds? As far as I remember that was the time in which Flight Captain C. Sullenberger had to
a) take off
b) gain alt, and the A320 was successful even after the loss of all engines
c) see the geese and perceive that there is no way to avoid contact, the A320 will definitely make geese fricassee, at alt 3200
d) perceive that all engines remain silent after the geese fricassee
e) avoid TEB in a now sailing A320 after you turned off all frequencies
f) be so keen and transform an A320 into a ship and save "all souls on board? - Yes, all 155." Which again is not only brilliant, and it deserves a Golden Star for Sully the Movie,
but also the real Flight Captain Sullenberger deserves a Golden Star with a Diamond, and that's an opinion which I don't have all to often. Not either all too many men save 155 lifes in an a/c after the loss of all engines.

Sully really deserves more than only the respect of one rather young semipro aviation enthusiast.

Time is always short or very short in a jet. And I often had the idea to try "the Sully" in my semipro B744 simulator. But you don't try something like that only for fun, don't ya. I haven't tried it until today, and most probably I'll fail, as btw ALL persons failed who until today tried it: US Air A320 flight instructors, Airbus A320 aircraft engineers, nobody was able to reach TEB within 208 seconds.

But in a Lear 35, with all engines running? Hm. The recorders should solve that case. I expect that a Lear 35 has a FDR, right?

[LH-B744]

I always say that I am a service oriented human bein, so.. Have a look (in German, but I translate):

PIO, explained by the de wiki

"Insbesondere wenn die Steuersysteme des Luftfahrzeugs nur mit Verzögerung auf die Kommandos des Piloten reagieren, ..."
In English: Especially if aileron, rudder or the throttle quadrant of an a/c do only react with response time to the input of one of the pilots, ...

Hm. I should ask a B744/B748i flight instructor, but isn't that a phenomenon that occurs in almost all jets? The bigger the jet the more preparation time you need? I know that a B744 needs
ALOT of preparation before "she" is ready to pass the t.o.d. point...

And also the two Lear 35 jet engines do not react as quick as a Baron 58... or do they.

As we hadn't been on board it sometimes seems easy to explain phenomenons. RIP, you young pilots. Lear 35 or CR9 pilots often are not older than me.

Is anyone able to publish the age of the two men in the Lear 35 cockpit?

PS: Imho, in German there is one very short word, only a little bit longer than PIO: überziehen. Wow. That seems to be something that can happen by reflex. You try to gain alt, and you pull, but you forget that ALL a/c - not only jets - lose speed,
the longer you pull the slower the a/c gets.
That's the reason why I've NEVER used vnav in my B744. At least three times during a flight you should really feel how "she" reacts: during t/o, during step climb, and during descent. A/P is off in my B744 when that happens.

And it is indeed a phenomenon when you pull and "she" takes off.

[LH-B744]

Purest of preliminary, unsubstantiated speculation: Lear's are known for PIO, and if you get to within (or beyond) 1/4 of a mile of the Airport and then crash a plane, with no 'obvious' distress call at this point...

Of course, I would NEVER get myself into a PIO, although I had an old rear-wheel drive Toyota Corolla wagon that was harder than hell to straightened out if you started playing around fish-tailing on a gravel road...how do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?

Pilot Induced Oscillations (PIO) - for those of us who quite rarely sit in the left seat of a Lear.

Ach Herrje. Ob das dieses Mal gut geht?

New York State or NYC, both are good for so much. Calspan is a professional provider for Lear 35/Lear 36A training, which exactly includes maneuvers to avoid PIO. Thus, I assume that the Calspan crew includes Lear 35/Lear 36A flight instructors.

I wasn't aware that a Lear 35 is prone for PIO, but as I said earlier, I'm still learning a lot. That indeed does not mean that the TEB accident is already solved.

[BoeingBobby]

Looks like some kind of departure from controlled flight. Impacted a residential area resulting in a fire and destruction of buildings and vehicles. No casualties reported on the ground, but I imagine this will trigger another discussion about that neighboring threat...

According to CNN, this is the 53rd fatal Learjet 35 accident since 1977.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/15/us...o-plane-crash/

1973 - 1994 738 35 & 36's built. As of January, 2007, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board database lists 19 fatal accidents for the 35/35A, and two for the 36/36A.

[LH-B744]

how do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?

...or in Portuguese? We once had a specialist here at JP for the Portuguese language.

Carlstadt NJ, that's much nearer to Teterboro than I am to DUS. But the 06 at TEB is only 6,000 ft , so, nothing which I'd think about. Sully also only needed a few seconds to avoid TEB, in an A320. But in a Learjet?

A Lear 36A theoretically only needs 2,900 ft (900 m) for a perfect landing. They should've made it.

Good that only the captain and the F/O were on board. Bad that both died.. only 1 nautical mile away from the TEB 06? That's hard.

[3WE]

Purest of preliminary, unsubstantiated speculation: Lear's are known for PIO, and if you get to within (or beyond) 1/4 of a mile of the Airport and then crash a plane, with no 'obvious' distress call at this point...

Of course, I would NEVER get myself into a PIO, although I had an old rear-wheel drive Toyota Corolla wagon that got real nasty if you started swerving for fun on a gravel road...the fishtails really seemed to amplify and I had some wide eye moments.

How do you say slip vs. skid but actually both in Espanol?

[Evan]

Looks like some kind of departure from controlled flight. Impacted a residential area resulting in a fire and destruction of buildings and vehicles. No casualties reported on the ground, but I imagine this will trigger another discussion about that neighboring threat...

According to CNN, this is the 53rd fatal Learjet 35 accident since 1977.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/15/us/teterboro-plane-crash/