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  • #31
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    [...]
    How many pilots could tell you what a "familiar" pitch and power setting is for an A330 at 250,000lbs and FL360? I think that (combined with human factors) is why many of the unreliable airspeed incidents revealed by the AF447 investigation—none using the memory item values, all improvised—resulted in upsets that were reported to be difficult to manage. Think about it.

    If I recall correctly, AF447 was tooling along at somewere between 1° and 0° pitch just prior to the autopilot disengagement. And that was at something like 75% N1 (slowing for turbulence penetration speed)! Is that what would pop into your head as familiar pitch and power settings?
    Wow. Back to the early years of our nicknames.. Didn't we finally discuss AF447? Since the year 2015, probably I am one of the biggest fans of the BEA..
    I'm able to look up what they wrote concerning AF447, almost ten years ago.

    Yes. That's also what I remember. As far as I remember, it was an AF-A332 (330-200) and they were on the return flight back from Rio Galeao SBGL to Charles de Gaulle. You wonder why somebody with my nickname knows all these names and codes? Well ... the reason is the nickname..

    And during the first hour, everything on board the AF-A332 was completely uneventful. So they climbed to a very normal cruise alt. Then, somebody detected quite severe conditions ahead. And I don't quite remember if they had wxr radar on board. Sometimes a sheer look through the window is enough. Thus, they decided to avoid what they've seen, heavy clouds and lightnings. A/P was disconnected, and they tried to climb again, right?

    And then it became fatal. Let's say with FL360, they decided to climb again, manually. Since I own Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator, I know that this is special. Especially if only one hour or clearly less than 50% of the distance is behind you, on an intercontinental flight.. The PFD commands you to fly fast enough. But even in a 747 you don't reach vmax when you are that heavy. In case of a 747, four N1 numbers are a quite good warning..

    And then you should NOT excessively pull the elevator, please..

    The fmc even gives you cruise alt recommendations for almost every phase of the flight, if you sit in a B744 simulator. Which imho is calculated with your precise TOW, FOB, and Fuel Flow in every single engine. Sometimes I say that a B744 herself teaches me how to get the best out of her.. FL360 is a quite good number for this flight phase. And then climb again, manually? Hm.

    I assume that all this somehow is connected with this new topic here.. Well, sad.

    2017 was a year without 1 major aviation incident! In contrast to 2018, obviously.

    PS: As you certainly have perceived, I've never used VNAV, not since I fly Randazzo's Finest, as I call her. I am a fan of personally sitting at the elevator, and, at the throttle quadrant, of course. If you don't know how far you can pull after you've pushed the thr, bad things can happen...
    Last edited by LH-B744; 2018-02-15, 08:21. Reason: A B744 gives you cruise alt recommendations inflight. Which should not be taken as the final truth, unchecked.
    LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
    LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
      Wow. Back to the early years of our nicknames.. Didn't we finally discuss AF447? Since the year 2015, probably I am one of the biggest fans of the BEA..
      I'm able to look up what they wrote concerning AF447, almost ten years ago.

      Yes. That's also what I remember. As far as I remember, it was an AF-A332 (330-200) and they were on the return flight back from Rio Galeao SBGL to Charles de Gaulle. You wonder why somebody with my nickname knows all these names and codes? Well ... the reason is the nickname..

      And during the first hour, everything on board the AF-A332 was completely uneventful. So they climbed to a very normal cruise alt. Then, somebody detected quite severe conditions ahead. And I don't quite remember if they had wxr radar on board. Sometimes a sheer look through the window is enough. Thus, they decided to avoid what they've seen, heavy clouds and lightnings. A/P was disconnected, and they tried to climb again, right?

      And then it became fatal. Let's say with FL360, they decided to climb again, manually. Since I own Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator, I know that this is special. Especially if only one hour or clearly less than 50% of the distance is behind you, on an intercontinental flight.. The PFD commands you to fly fast enough. But even in a 747 you don't reach vmax when you are that heavy. In case of a 747, four N1 numbers are a quite good warning..

      And then you should NOT excessively pull the elevator, please..

      The fmc even gives you cruise alt recommendations for almost every phase of the flight, if you sit in a B744 simulator. Which imho is calculated with your precise TOW, FOB, and Fuel Flow in every single engine. Sometimes I say that a B744 herself teaches me how to get the best out of her.. FL360 is a quite good number for this flight phase. And then climb again, manually? Hm.

      I assume that all this somehow is connected with this new topic here.. Well, sad.

      2017 was a year without 1 major aviation incident! In contrast to 2018, obviously.

      PS: As you certainly have perceived, I've never used VNAV, not since I fly Randazzo's Finest, as I call her. I am a fan of personally sitting at the elevator, and, at the throttle quadrant, of course. If you don't know how far you can pull after you've pushed the thr, bad things can happen...



      WHAT???

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
        WHAT???
        Hm. My dearest jp forum member, directly after ATLcrew.. But ATLcrew imho has shown evidence that he can be professional and polite, and especially

        WITHOUT BIGGER LETTERS THAN ONE OF OUR AVATARS TAILFIN IS HIGH.

        You try to also become a "Senior"? I could tell you the jp member who almost avoided that I became one... It was definitely not you.
        I rather am on one side with Erwin and ATLcrew. Be short, precise and polite. But if you know something, you can elaborate on it. There are only a few men who stop me when they say stop. Two of them are in my jetphotos online friends gallery. Another one is my dearest DUS administrator. And last but not least, there is one German speaking man, approx as old as me, who, as I assume, always says 'yes', more or less, when I write one or two words in German in my profile...

        So, come on. I don't have to tell you what VNAV is. Not you.
        LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
        LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
        Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
          Hm. My dearest jp forum member, directly after ATLcrew.. But ATLcrew imho has shown evidence that he can be professional and polite, and especially

          WITHOUT BIGGER LETTERS THAN ONE OF OUR AVATARS TAILFIN IS HIGH.

          You try to also become a "Senior"? I could tell you the jp member who almost avoided that I became one... It was definitely not you.
          I rather am on one side with Erwin and ATLcrew. Be short, precise and polite. But if you know something, you can elaborate on it. There are only a few men who stop me when they say stop. Two of them are in my jetphotos online friends gallery. Another one is my dearest DUS administrator. And last but not least, there is one German speaking man, approx as old as me, who, as I assume, always says 'yes', more or less, when I write one or two words in German in my profile...

          So, come on. I don't have to tell you what VNAV is. Not you.
          First off, I can give a rats ass if I have posted over a thousand posts or not. You just wrote in your PROFESSIONAL 747 know it all as usual, "And I don't quite remember if they had wxr radar on board". All part 121 aircraft are required to have weather avoidance radar aboard. The ONLY aircraft that was exempt was the Curtiss C-46, which I flew for 3 years. So that is what the WHAT was about. If you did not spout off things like you are preaching the gospel, and you weren't wrong most of the time it would be a different story.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
            First off, I can give a rats ass if I have posted over a thousand posts or not. You just wrote in your PROFESSIONAL 747 know it all as usual, "And I don't quite remember if they had wxr radar on board". All part 121 aircraft are required to have weather avoidance radar aboard. The ONLY aircraft that was exempt was the Curtiss C-46, which I flew for 3 years. So that is what the WHAT was about. If you did not spout off things like you are preaching the gospel, and you weren't wrong most of the time it would be a different story.
            And I don't give a damn shit on what you say. Were you even born when AF447 happened? The day which Evan and me are discussing precisely is June 1st 2009.

            Without that you say one more word in your ole BIG letters, I have perceived, that on June 1st 2009 you definitely were not existent here on Jetphotos!

            Join Date 06-18-2009 .

            What Seniors like Evan and me were discussing, if a half eternity before you Bo..y appeared here, e.g. in 2008 or earlier, the wxr radar also was a law.

            Since when, in your humble opinion, is it a law to have a wxr on board? And be precise, year, month and day! Now you again.
            LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
            LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
            Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

            Comment


            • #36
              The tone makes the music, little Bob. And if you don't avoid these big letters and 8 (eight) question marks in a row, you'll stay what since our last little incidence in my eyes you've stayed: little Bob, not older than half as old as me.

              3WE and me precisely remember what you said last time. And 3WE and me know who are jetphotos online friends since then.

              And who not!
              LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
              LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
              Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                Since when, in your humble opinion, is it a law to have a wxr on board? And be precise, year, month and day! Now you again.

                § 121.357 Airborne weather radar equipment requirements.
                (a) No person may operate any transport category airplane (except C-46 type airplanes) or a nontransport category airplane certificated after December 31, 1964, unless approved airborne weather radar equipment has been installed in the airplane.

                (b) [Reserved]

                (c) Each person operating an airplane required to have approved airborne weather radar equipment installed shall, when using it under this part, operate it in accordance with the following:

                (1)Dispatch. No person may dispatch an airplane (or begin the flight of an airplane in the case of a certificate holder, that does not use a dispatch system) under IFR or night VFR conditions when current weather reports indicate that thunderstorms, or other potentially hazardous weather conditions that can be detected with airborne weather radar, may reasonably be expected along the route to be flown, unless the airborne weather radar equipment is in satisfactory operating condition.

                (2) If the airborne weather radar becomes inoperative en route, the airplane must be operated in accordance with the approved instructions and procedures specified in the operations manual for such an event.

                (d) This section does not apply to airplanes used solely within the State of Hawaii or within the State of Alaska and that part of Canada west of longitude 130 degrees W, between latitude 70 degrees N, and latitude 53 degrees N, or during any training, test, or ferry flight.

                (e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, an alternate electrical power supply is not required for airborne weather radar equipment.

                [Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19205, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121-18, 31 FR 5825, Apr. 15, 1966; Amdt. 121-130, 41 FR 47229, Oct. 28, 1976; Amdt. 121-251, 60 FR 65932, Dec. 20, 1995]


                Is this good enough for you? You seem to admire and respect TeeVee, PM him and ask him about our meeting.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Good enough for me? No!

                  Since 1964? WXR Data which are displayed, after you use the WXR knob, on one of the multicolor displays in a 747 cockpit? You haven't really read my profile. My special topic is the Boeing 747 and its history, as invented by Boeing Chief Engineer Joe Sutter in 1965. Thus, I know how the cockpit of the prototype 747 looks like.

                  And I definitely know how the cockpit of a LH-B742 in the mark I LH 747 livery ("mirror belly") looks like.

                  No displays! Only ten hand full (at least) of clock instruments!

                  Now let me tell you what I know. The weather radar, as used in all LH-B744s, is able to locate
                  a) Rain
                  and
                  b) Clouds.

                  These wxr data are shown exactly where? - On the same Multi Function Display, which is used if you for example use the sta knob. And since when do multi function dispays exist? - Since the mid of the 1990s.

                  Thus, imho the B744 (747-400, see my avatar, since 1989) could've been the first 747 type ever with a functional wxr.

                  PS: You are right, TeeVee is one of the jp members who I respect. But is AA a founding member of the 747 club since 1970? Or, has AA ever owned one 747?
                  LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
                  LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
                  Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                    Good enough for me? No!

                    Since 1964? WXR Data which are displayed, after you use the WXR knob, on one of the multicolor displays in a 747 cockpit? You haven't really read my profile. My special topic is the Boeing 747 and its history, as invented by Boeing Chief Engineer Joe Sutter in 1965. Thus, I know how the cockpit of the prototype 747 looks like.

                    And I definitely know how the cockpit of a LH-B742 in the mark I LH 747 livery ("mirror belly") looks like.

                    No displays! Only ten hand full (at least) of clock instruments!

                    Now let me tell you what I know. The weather radar, as used in all LH-B744s, is able to locate
                    a) Rain
                    and
                    b) Clouds.

                    These wxr data are shown exactly where? - On the same Multi Function Display, which is used if you for example use the sta knob. And since when do multi function dispays exist? - Since the mid of the 1990s.

                    Thus, imho the B744 (747-400, see my avatar, since 1989) could've been the first 747 type ever with a functional wxr.

                    PS: You are right, TeeVee is one of the jp members who I respect. But is AA a founding member of the 747 club since 1970? Or, has AA ever owned one 747?
                    Again, WHAT? You asked the question, I answered it. Now you don't like the answer. Let us think about this for a second. We have you, a non-motion simulator expert on the Lufthansa 747-400, and me, a now retired (that's right I am over 65 now) 747 Captain that flew the 747-100, 200, 300, 400, -8 and the Boeing LCF. They all had or have weather radar. Yes not all were in the MFD (which also show turbulence by the way) but they ALL had it.

                    And if you are asking about American Airlines and the 74, yes they had them for a short while. American Airlines took delivery of 16 passenger Boeing 747s. By 1975 half the fleet got converted to freighters. At that time The 747 was too much plane for American's route system since they were mostly a domestic carrier. They were used mostly on JFK-LAX/SFO/SJU and I think one was operated from DFW-HNL or was that a DC-10. In the 1980s when American started to add cities in Europe their 747s could have been put to good use on those routes. Where did their 747 Freighters fly to? In 1984 Robert Crandall decided to swap the 747s to Pan Am for their ex-National DC-10s.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      If I recall correctly, AF447 was tooling along at somewere between 1° and 0° pitch just prior to the autopilot disengagement. And that was at something like 75% N1 (slowing for turbulence penetration speed)! Is that what would pop into your head as familiar pitch and power settings?

                      At full CL thrust and 5°, you are going to depart flight level a bit, but you are safe from stall and overspeed and you can fine tune that with the FCOM in a minute or two. That's the idea.
                      Fascinating...YOU are spitting out FAMILIAR ROBUST POWER AND PITCH SETTINGS- which give you known, robust horizontal and vertical speeds...

                      And yes, THAT is the idea. Level pitch and 75% power = level flight and a nice speed with fat margins between stall and overspeed. 5 degree ANU gives you a nice climb with fat margins between stall and overspeed.

                      Then, I dunno...take the time to ask if the pitot tubes might be iced up, or even consult the Bible (FCOM version) for next steps...in any case, fly the damn plane without making relentless pull ups...
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Fascinating...YOU are spitting out FAMILIAR ROBUST POWER AND PITCH SETTINGS- which give you known, robust horizontal and vertical speeds...

                        And yes, THAT is the idea. Level pitch and 75% power = level flight and a nice speed with fat margins between stall and overspeed. 5 degree ANU gives you a nice climb with fat margins between stall and overspeed.
                        no..no..no... You see, this is the problem! What one pilot thinks is a familiar pitch/power setting will differ from what another pilot has in mind, and some of those "familiar" assumptions will be wrong enough to get you into trouble. But what do the engineers of these aircraft know for sure? That a given pitch and power setting will NOT get you into trouble. So they provide that, pilots are taught to memorize it (memory items training) and everyone follows THAT procedure until they can fine tune things and fly by airmanship alone. No one dies.

                        You, however, just stated that a pitch of 0-1° is going to do nicely. It's not. Before the F/O of AF447 selected a speed reduction via the autopilot, the N1 was where it typically is at this point, in the high 90's. The reason it was down in the 70's at disconnect was due to the speed reduction command, and would need to come back up very soon to maintain that reduced speed. If you fly at that pitch, weight and altitude at 75%N1, you are going to descend, and if you react to that by adding pitch, in alternate law, you are on your way to a stall warning. On the other hand, if you simply leave the thrust levers where they are (CL detent) and fly the pitch you were at, the same thing is going to happen because the thrust is now locked at 75%N1. And if you, instead rely on the flight directors for pitch, you might end up there too because the FD's are now unreliable.

                        You see all the hidden pitfalls that await you if you try to apply the familiar to an unfamiliar situation?

                        On the other hand, you can follow the procedure and avoid them.

                        Your choice, but the passengers don't get to choose and they die with you.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Your choice, but the passengers don't get to choose and they die with you.
                          I struggle with logic. Please explain how the power setting and attitude that was used yesterday and for the previous 600 flights kills people today, but not_on the previous 600 flights.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                            I struggle with logic. Please explain how the power setting and attitude that was used yesterday and for the previous 600 flights kills people today, but not_on the previous 600 flights.
                            1) As I just pointed out, many pilots today are not so familiar with power and attitude settings for phases of flight where autoflight is REQUIRED.

                            2) You, yourself just provided a perfect example of this. Level pitch and 75% power DOES NOT equal level flight and a nice speed with fat margins between stall and overspeed. Not for an A330 at 250,000lbs and FL360 (or whatever is was).

                            3) Other incidents of unreliable airspeed revealed by the AF447 investigation showed that pilots did not always fly pitch and power that resulted in level flight and a nice speed with fat margins between stall and overspeed.

                            The logic is simple: there are less-than-stellar pilots out there, maybe more than we care to admit, who will do this wrong if they improvise based on what they think is 'familiar'. So we have established settings that will work safely for both the stellar and non-stellar pilots.

                            No upset, everyone lives. That's the logic.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              You, yourself just provided a perfect example of this. Level pitch and 75% power DOES NOT equal level flight and a nice speed with fat margins between stall and overspeed. Not for an A330 at 250,000lbs and FL360 (or whatever is was).
                              Damn...busted...all my Airbus 330 hours and I blow it on straight and level power settings.
                              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                1) As I just pointed out, many pilots today are not so familiar with power and attitude settings for phases of flight where autoflight is REQUIRED.

                                2) You, yourself just provided a perfect example of this. Level pitch and 75% power DOES NOT equal level flight and a nice speed with fat margins between stall and overspeed. Not for an A330 at 250,000lbs and FL360 (or whatever is was).
                                Evan, I am all for following procedures including and especially memory items. But this is ridiculous. 5deg and CLB won't give you level flight either. And the attitude and power setting that you had before UAS are an excellent start. Again, memory items are even better. But if you keep the nose just slightly up and any reasonable cruise power setting (again, what you had immediately before the UAS is a good start) should keep you safe. Level flight? No. But safe. AF was with a somehow reduced power because they were slowing down to turbulent air penetration speed. So if they kept pitch and power the speed would have gone down, and the airplane would have started to descent, at constant pitch, and the speed and VS would have stabilized at some safe level. Again, am I proposing this? No. Again, by all means follow procedures. But just not following procedures is not enough to explain these accidents. There were other much more rational ways to bust the procedures. Saying "they did not follow the procedures" is almost like saying "they did not keep the required clearance from the ground".

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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