If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
I just disagree that is should have to be made safer when the real problem lies in pilot training. We shouldn't have to design jets that make up for bad fundamental pilot training.
you almost made sense here. what we really need to do is design jets and their systems keepin in mind that pilots will always be human and being human will sometimes make mistakes--big and small; they will sometimes fail to pay 100% attention to everything, especially when things are degrading; they will entirely shit the bed sometimes (e.g., pull up relentlessly when in a stall) and on-and-on.
aerospace industry has gone a loooooong way toward perfecting these systems. from my limited perspective, they kinda fell short in some areas and said, "well, the pilots will have to either avoid this entirely or figure this out when it happens."
Well, Airbus addressed that with the ADIRS panel (overhead), the SWITCHING panel (pedestal) and the MDCU IRS monitor page. Yes, they expect Murphy's Law to be enforced. Therefore, they provided these controls to either realign the IRS units in flight or to shut down a faulty unit and switch to over to the redundant one (IRS3, the very one that [somebody] shut down here.) But a lot of good that does if [somebody] neglects to concentrate and follow the relatively simple procedure, despite having plenty of time to do so.
You've lost me. Where did you see a lack of 'fundamental aerodienamical airmanshipmanship' here?
Dude, you are amazing. I see just about 0.000000% 'fundamental aerodienamical airmanshipmanship' in your paragraph above, but I guess it is somewhat related to Category 7 performance standards.
I only see switching electronics off and on in a somewhat tricky, exact order with some apparently insidiously-similar switches...Murphy-prone at its finest!
Would it be wise to have a LESTGGSAI* in a corner of the panel somewhere?
*Little Electric Semi-Traditional Genuine Gyro Standby Attitude Indicator for the rest of us- Evan would only understand an acronym.
Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
you almost made sense here. what we really need to do is design jets and their systems keepin in mind that pilots will always be human and being human will sometimes make mistakes--big and small; they will sometimes fail to pay 100% attention to everything, especially when things are degrading; they will entirely shit the bed sometimes (e.g., pull up relentlessly when in a stall) and on-and-on.
The trouble with that excuse is that nothing was hitting the fan here. This was a routine nuisance problem (the previous flight also experienced it and landed without a hitch). This was a take-your-time-and-work-the-problem problem. This was a calmly-drag-out-the-QRH, discuss-with-the-other-pilot-and-methodically-work-the-problem problem. Both crew should have been involved, both should had eyes on the panels when things were switched. That's the human error redundancy. CRM. CRM is respected in some pilot cultures and devalued in others.
aerospace industry has gone a loooooong way toward perfecting these systems. from my limited perspective, they kinda fell short in some areas and said, "well, the pilots will have to either avoid this entirely or figure this out when it happens."
Except for the fact that they provided panels specifically for this problem and a short, simple procedure in the FCOM. What else would you have them do?
I only see switching electronics off and on in a somewhat tricky, exact order with some apparently insidiously-similar switches...Murphy-prone at its finest!
You don't see a flight crew landing a wide-body jet with electro-mechanical instruments and a side-stick in direct law with no trim feel? I think that qualifies as 'fundamental aerodienamical airmanshipmanship'.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
Dude, you are amazing. I see just about 0.000000% 'fundamental aerodienamical airmanshipmanship' in your paragraph above, but I guess it is somewhat related to Category 7 performance standards.
I only see switching electronics off and on in a somewhat tricky, exact order with some apparently insidiously-similar switches...Murphy-prone at its finest!
Would it be wise to have a LESTGGSAI* in a corner of the panel somewhere?
*Little Electric Semi-Traditional Genuine Gyro Standby Attitude Indicator for the rest of us- Evan would only understand an acronym.
This is a still frame of the video that the second first officer took during the approach.
Care to guess what's not visible here but is next to the mechanical ASI and ALT seen on the right side of the picture?
Let's see...
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
Good to know- it's stand-alone, electro-mechanical, right?
In Evan's acronym-laden comments, did he say they turned the thing off while flipping similar looking switches?
Who in the hell designed it to be turned off???- Isn't a cumulonimbus switch back behind them good enough? And if it goes haywire- get some gunk from an FA and stick a piece of paper over it.
Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
Good to know- it's stand-alone, electro-mechanical, right?
In Evan's acronym-laden comments, did he say they turned the thing off while flipping similar looking switches?
It might be acronym-laden but it's really simple. There are dedicated IR units for both the CPT anf FO (IRS1/IRS2). There is a third IR unit as a back-up (IRS3), unused in normal operations. If one of the dedicated IR units fails (or is switched off) the third unit (IRS3) can be switched over to that side. So long as two units are still operating in agreement, there is no problem.
The back-up instruments are provided in case two or more data sources fail (about as unlikely as two engines failing, unless [someone] switches them off accidentally). The older, electromechanical instrument on this aircraft has its own internal gyro powered by the essential DC bus. Even if there is a total power loss, it will operate for some time on battery. I don't know of any way to shut it down aside from a breaker.
It might be acronym-laden but it's really simple. There are dedicated IR units for both the CPT anf FO (IRS1/IRS2). There is a third IR unit as a back-up (IRS3), unused in normal operations. If one of the dedicated IR units fails (or is switched off) the third unit (IRS3) can be switched over to that side. So long as two units are still operating in agreement, there is no problem.
The back-up instruments are provided in case two or more data sources fail (about as unlikely as two engines failing, unless [someone] switches them off accidentally). The older, electromechanical instrument on this aircraft has its own internal gyro powered by the essential DC bus. Even if there is a total power loss, it will operate for some time on battery. I don't know of any way to shut it down aside from a breaker.
Sorry man, just not sure where infrared radiation, a 1980s-era word processor, the United States' tax folks and bus service in the District of Columbia have to do with an attitude indicator. Can you reliably discern radiation differences from above and below? I'm sure they are different, but with clouds/clear and day and night, I can see where there's inconsistencies over time.
Maybe we get more formal and put a roll of wide painter's tape to tape over the faulty attitude indications?
Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.
We process personal data about users of our site, through the use of cookies and other technologies, to deliver our services, personalize advertising, and to analyze site activity. We may share certain information about our users with our advertising and analytics partners. For additional details, refer to our Privacy Policy.
By clicking "I AGREE" below, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our personal data processing and cookie practices as described therein. You also acknowledge that this forum may be hosted outside your country and you consent to the collection, storage, and processing of your data in the country where this forum is hosted.
Tweet
Comment