The date is set.

[BoeingBobby]

So the big day is approaching. This coming Thursday, Gabriel will get to show me and a couple of simulator instructors how he can land a 747/200 at maximum landing weight by visual means only. He will be flying the same simulator that all of the VC-25 and E-4 pilots train in from the USAF. I am going to set the sim up on a 10 mile final, fully configured to land, gear and flaps down (30 degrees), on speed and on glide path. Wind will be right down the runway at 10 knots. He will have the airspeed bugs set for landing ref and I will give him a target N1 for the proper power setting. There will be NO localizer or Glideslope information available, and NO PAPI or VASI. I am hoping that he does a video for you all. Wish him luck!

[Evan]

So the big day is approaching. This coming Thursday, Gabriel will get to show me and a couple of simulator instructors how he can land a 747/200 at maximum landing weight by visual means only. He will be flying the same simulator that all of the VC-25 and E-4 pilots train in from the USAF. I am going to set the sim up on a 10 mile final, fully configured to land, gear and flaps down (30 degrees), on speed and on glide path. Wind will be right down the runway at 10 knots. He will have the airspeed bugs set for landing ref and I will give him a target N1 for the proper power setting. There will be NO localizer or Glideslope information available, and NO PAPI or VASI. I am hoping that he does a video for you all. Wish him luck!

Don't forget the blindfold. Trust the force, Gabe.

[BoeingBobby]

Don't forget the blindfold. Trust the force, Gabe.

His option, however I personalty think he is going to have his hands full using both eyes landing a 630,000 pound 747 for the first time.

[vaztr]

Jealous

[3WE]

So the big day is approaching. This coming Thursday, Gabriel will get to show me and a couple of simulator instructors how he can land a 747/200 at maximum landing weight by visual means only. He will be flying the same simulator that all of the VC-25 and E-4 pilots train in from the USAF. I am going to set the sim up on a 10 mile final, fully configured to land, gear and flaps down (30 degrees), on speed and on glide path. Wind will be right down the runway at 10 knots. He will have the airspeed bugs set for landing ref and I will give him a target N1 for the proper power setting. There will be NO localizer or Glideslope information available, and NO PAPI or VASI. I am hoping that he does a video for you all. Wish him luck!

Hmmm...I suggest the following cowboy procedures.

Grab the yoke and throttles and rudder pedals (ok, don't grab the pedals)...try not to move anything.

Look out the front window (this procedure should be conducted a few times every second for the whole shebang.

Make small control inputs as you fly towards the runway.

When nearing the threshold, pull back gently...glance at the VSI (since you do NOT have Bobbby's multi-hour buttocks)...hopefully it's 200 FPM ish...

Continue looking out the window. Use yoke and pedals and power control in a manner similar to what you do in a Tommy- Hawk...

Use aereoengineering and phugoid knowledge to know that the plane will be much less responsive.

[vaztr]

Or...

Pull up relentlessly as other 10,000+ hour PFs have done in the past

[elaw]

Will there be simulated fire/rescue crews waiting next to the runway?

[3WE]

***I am going to set the sim up on a 10 mile final, fully configured to land, gear and flaps down (30 degrees), on speed and on glide path. Wind will be right down the runway at 10 knots. He will have the airspeed bugs set for landing ref and I will give him a target N1 for the proper power setting. There will be NO localizer or Glideslope information available, and NO PAPI or VASI.***

As I think about this, it seems like an extremely unrealistic, non-normal test of flying abilities- or should I say not_test of flying abilities.

You have to do nothing to capture the ILS, slow the plane, turn the plane, configure the plane, maintain speed, etc.- it's handed over to you in near-perfect shape- but then, you have nothing in the way of an ILS nor visual glideslope indications. Pretty sure SOP is "tune the ILS" for almost all landings (including visual) except for when the ILS is out of service. And then, I really struggle to find a runway without a PAIP/VASI. Heck, it's even a little bit hard to find a general aviation airport without a VASI/PAPI these days.

Seriously- how often is a transport aircraft landed (in the US) without any visual or electronic guidance?

Either Gabe has decent visual glideslope perspective or he does not...

What does this do to test his ability to climb, descend, control speed, maneuver the aircraft, line up on a runway- AND you are giving him known-fat-dumb-and-happy power setting (can you say more deviations from reality?)

All he's being tested on is visual glideslope perspective and can he make minor corrections and flare enough not to bend anything...a small part of Evan's detested cowboy airmanship skills.

...a strange demonstration of skills this will be.

[elaw]

Yeah, no PAPI/VASI seems a little harsh. On the other hand, a PAPI/VASI that's calibrated for an airplane where the pilot sits 20 feet lower relative to the ground could make things worse rather than better...

[3WE]

the pilot sits 20 feet lower relative to the ground could make things worse rather than better...

Google 3 bar VASI...


I also think the four standard PAPI lights may offer something too.

[BoeingBobby]

Gabe is the one that called the parameters by accepting my original challenge. We have the Sim for a couple of hours, he will get a chance to have some fun. Maybe a touch and go on the deck of the Nimitz in Hong Kong harbor.

[TeeVee]

what time? maybe we can all meet for a burger at the pilots' favorite hangout after....

[Gabriel]

I am hoping that he does a video for you all.

At minimum I will have my cellphone with full battery and an additional SIM card. Let's see if I manage to get a go-pro or similar.

A YouTube video link will be made available here some time afterwards for all you to enjoy my delightful display of airmanship, or my clownish crashes or, more likely, both.

His option, however I personalty think he is going to have his hands full using both eyes landing a 630,000 pound 747 for the first time.

To be honest, beforehand I expect that keeping a stable flight path towards the runway (both horizontally and vertically) and the speed close to target will be the easy part. I expect the hard part to be the flare, for 2 reasons: 1) I will be already touching down and at eye height where I am not even starting to flare in the Tomahawk and 2) I have no feeling for the 747's pitch dynamics (how much control input it takes to pitch how much and how much pitch inertia there is) and, starting with a straight-in approach with everything already stable from the start, I will have little chance to practice pitch inputs before the flare. Maybe these easy conditions for the first attempt will be a handicap when the it's time to flare.

Hmmm...I suggest the following cowboy procedures.

Hey, great idea!!! If BB agrees, let the forum propose some scenarios/situations that you would like me to try in the sim. BB and myself can pick a few and see how it goes. Things can range from an ILS approach in IMC to a windshear escape to a V1 cut to a "we lost all the hydros and we only have the throttles". I will take it seriously and do my best. I don't mind what it is as long as it involves only stick-rudder-throttles and the six-pack plus raw VOR/DME/ADF/ILS navigation. Anything that requires tings like autopilot, autothrust, programming the FMS, dealing with specific procedures regarding the 747 systems, I would not know even how to start.

(Re: No ILS/VASI/PAPI) Either Gabe has decent visual glideslope perspective or he does not...

Well, there are tricks, like GS/2 and add a zero. For example, for 160 knots ground, 800 fpm will give you almost exactly 3 degrees.
On the other hand, knowing myself I think I will make steeper approaches. When I flew the Tomahawk or Cessnas, I normally found myself doing the last several hundred feet at idle and with full flaps, which is an approach much steeper than the nominal 3 degrees. When I did an ILS in VMC or PAPI/VASI approach I found myself feeling all the time that I was way too low, and it felt very unnatural and uncomfortable.

We have the Sim for a couple of hours, he will get a chance to have some fun.

Yay!!!!

Just "some" fun? That's the understatement of the year.
The 2 days before the sim I will be in Disney World (for the 1st time). I am sure it will be fun. I am sure it will be nowhere as fun as the sim!!!

As I said I will take it seriously: whatever the situation, I will really try my best to fly the plane, not to crash, and to end it with a "perfect" landing (one from which we can walk away and the sim can be re-used without further maintenance). But who said that serious things cannot be a lot of fun too?

[3WE]

***When I flew the Tomahawk or Cessnas, I normally found myself doing the last several hundred feet at idle and with full flaps, which is an approach much steeper than the nominal 3 degrees. When I did an ILS in VMC or PAPI/VASI approach I found myself feeling all the time that I was way too low, and it felt very unnatural and uncomfortable.***

This is worrisome.

You get high, chop power and head down at an increased rate? This is where the 600K pounds (and change) will likely show itself as you flare the rapidly sinking airplane.

Worrisome, because what do they say about spool up times from big jet engines at idle?

Worrisome, because I have the same tendency and because overcoming it by following ‘external’ glide slope indicators (and eventually learning glide perspective) is what finally made for consistent, successful 747 landings with MSFS.

What is MSFS worth? The math makes for a virtual 747 that performs about like a real one with some reasonable visual clues, but no buttactile movements and unrealistic control feelings...AND you can change it’s livery with a few mouse clicks.

[Evan]

Hey, great idea!!! If BB agrees, let the forum propose some scenarios/situations that you would like me to try in the sim. BB and myself can pick a few and see how it goes.

(in order of aviation forum impressiveness)

3) Hydraulics failure / clean or reduced configuration landing without spoilers

2) Fuel starvation / Gimli Glider cross control landing on a weekend dragstrip

1) Ditching in the Hudson.