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Vintage JU-52 aircraft crashes in Swiss Alps

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  • #16
    We know what the cost of this aircraft's damage was?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by ErezS View Post
      It surprises me a little bit that after a day no one responded here about this tragedy.
      It does surprise you? Well, for me it is not such a big surprise, that until today we don't know so much more. Since 2008, here I have discussed one or two or three fatal accidents. And I can say, today is day 12 after the accident (August 4th). That's nothing.

      There is no rule that says, the investigation of a fatal aviation accident must be finished within 7 days. Imho, it depends on the case. There is one case, which was solved within three days or less, March 2015. I'm sure you know what I mean. But it was the French BEA (Bureau d’enquêtes et d’analyses pour la sécurité de l’aviation civile) which solved the case in 2015, and imho they are one of the best, not only since 2015..

      So, I don't know if the French BEA wants to take a look at this one, although it happened in Switzerland.
      LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
      LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
      Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ferinbarsa View Post
        We know what the cost of this aircraft's damage was?
        Strange question. Do you like to buy one? The inauguration flight of the Ju 52 was in March 1932. Thus, how much money do you need to maintain an aircraft which is...
        more than 86 years old.

        You can try to mention a number.

        I know a source which since 2008 seems to be quite reliable, they are not always the fastest but, I assume that most of the texts are either written or at least regularly observed by professionals (e.g. the French BEA or the American NTSB).

        Here it is, the German version, as I assume that the accident happened in the German speaking part of Switzerland (Deutsch und Rätoromanisch? Alex?).

        So, the German version could contain the best info, but with one click you can reach the English wiki version. This is the version which I like to use first of all:

        Fatal accident with Ju 52 HB-HOT (German version)

        People who know me since 1 or 2 years know what I'll do now. I'll partly translate the source.

        "It was a hot day" Yes I can confirm that. Inflight the pilots of the Ju-52 had to handle a wind which reached 27 in gusts (50 km/h). That's quite something, especially as we don't talk about a 747, but about an 86 year old propeller, which normally is not much faster than..

        cruise speed Ju-52: 97 knots.

        So, 97 minus 27? Now I need a specialist for rather old propeller a/c (older than me). Is that too slow?

        PS: I have found something like a spec sheet for the Ju-52:
        Empty Weight 5.72 metric tons.
        MTOW 10.5 metric tons
        payload 1.5 metric tons.
        And the bird was full. Must've been one of those flights when one or two LH Flight Captains on the long haul say on TV 'Now we earn money.'

        130 km/h over ground? That's rather normal in a car. But in a three-engined propeller, with 17 passengers on board?
        LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
        LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
        Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

        Comment


        • #19
          The Flight Captain or most experienced pilot on board the Ju-52 was 62 years old, with 943 flight hours in a Ju-52 cockpit. And what did he do before.
          He was a Swiss jet pilot for Airbus A330/A340.

          Thus, I assume that, if he knew that the wind reaches 27 in gusts, he did the same as I'd do, with such a slow propeller. Assumed that he was high enough (mountaineous area), go with the wind and don't fight against it!

          Another topic could have been, if the Captain hadn't been experienced with 943 flight hours on type, pressurization. I assume that a 86 year old propeller is not pressurized in the cabin. So, the possibilities to climb out of such a situation are limited.

          Until now, I don't have a clue. 943 flight hours on type Ju-52. That's enough, especially with his history, airliner pilot in a Swiss Airbus A340. He knows how to handle a weather report preflight.
          LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
          LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
          Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

          Comment


          • #20
            Would you dare to cross the Matterhorn (14,692 AMSL) in an unpressurized 86 year old very slow propeller with 17 passengers on board?

            That's not necessarily what the old hand (Alter Hase) did. But if you ask me, for a flight across the Swiss Alps, I could imagine one or two or three aircraft which I'd use instead of an unpressurized 86 year old very slow propeller:
            1) Beech King Air 350
            2) Airbus A340 (thats where the 62 year old former jet pilot originally was responsible for)
            or
            3) What a question. LH-B744.

            And there probably was no fire on board the Ju-52. And no emergency call was sent. That really sounds like as if both pilots in the cockpit have suddenly become unconscious.
            Due to an alt which you should not fly at in an unpressurized aircraft?

            I mean, the Ju-52 has a ceiling of 6300 meters (almost alt 21,000?!). But that's an altitude which, unpressurized, I'd NEVER try with 17 passengers on board, not by far.

            PS: And, what I also didn't know, Locarno, where the HB-HOT took off before the accident, has VERY short runways. But the Ju-52 is a STOL propeller, since 1932 she's able to take off with MTOW on a strip that's not longer than 350 meters.

            So, Locarno for the Ju-52 is something like KJFK for me, more than long enough. That wasn't the problem either. I'd guess they were to high without oxygen or/and too slow at high alt with a strong headwind. Ju-52: Not more than 3x 750 hp without Turbo, for an a/c with a 29.25 meter wingspan (17 passengers).

            The Beech King Air 350 provides 2x 1050 hp Turboprop for an a/c with a 17.65 meter wingspan (11 passengers). And the Turbo really makes a difference concerning the ceiling (speed at high alt) ..

            That's the weaker Beech King Air C90 twin Turboprop, but still better in the high Alps than a Ju-52. Which one would you take to cross the high Alps, a 1978 Volkswagen Beetle (34 hp), or a Fiat 500 Abarth (135 hp)? I'd rather take the Abarth, btw here a very good Turboprop photo:
            Beech King Air C90 (Japan) at high alt.
            LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
            LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
            Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

            Comment


            • #21
              And after all, I know that something like a Junkers Ju-52 was on top of the EDDL Terminal B building when I was younger. Until... 1997?

              Maybe she should've stayed here, in the flat lands. Hugo Junkers was born 1859 in Rheydt, today a part of Mönchengladbach. I can tell you, that's not far away from my home airport, so it is as flat as EDDL.

              I don't think that Junkers was able to invent an a/c to cross the High Alps, in contrast to J.F. Sutter (Seattle, WA) ...

              Only once until today I have used Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator for a flight to Seattle, WA. That's where a/c are invented to cross something like the Mt Rainier (14,411 AMSL)...

              Even if only in a semi-pro simulator, very impressive!

              PS: Until 1865, not 1 human really saw the peak of the Matterhorn, I've just found out. By then, Hugo Junkers was 6 years old. So, today the Ju-52 is what she was during her inauguration flight, March 1932: a real flat land aircraft.
              Although equipped with a range of more than 600 nmi, which is enough for the EDDL - LIMJ route, the Ju-52 never was invented to cross the High Alps.
              Last edited by LH-B744; 2018-08-17, 02:47. Reason: I just wonder how far Alex or the EDDL hawk let me go tonight..
              LH and the Hamburg - Düsseldorf - Shannon - NYC route, open since June 1st, 1955. A/C type: Lockheed Super Constellation.
              LH is member in the 747 club since April 1970. Jubilees do count, believe me.
              Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by LH-B744 View Post
                And after all, I know that something like a Junkers Ju-52 was on top of the EDDL Terminal B building when I was younger. Until... 1997?

                Maybe she should've stayed here, in the flat lands. Hugo Junkers was born 1859 in Rheydt, today a part of Mönchengladbach. I can tell you, that's not far away from my home airport, so it is as flat as EDDL.

                I don't think that Junkers was able to invent an a/c to cross the High Alps, in contrast to J.F. Sutter (Seattle, WA) ...

                Only once until today I have used Randazzo's LH-B744 simulator for a flight to Seattle, WA. That's where a/c are invented to cross something like the Mt Rainier (14,411 AMSL)...

                Even if only in a semi-pro simulator, very impressive!

                PS: Until 1865, not 1 human really saw the peak of the Matterhorn, I've just found out. By then, Hugo Junkers was 6 years old. So, today the Ju-52 is what she was during her inauguration flight, March 1932: a real flat land aircraft.
                Although equipped with a range of more than 600 nmi, which is enough for the EDDL - LIMJ route, the Ju-52 never was invented to cross the High Alps.
                A: Airplanes are designed not invented. B: Nothing wrong with flying the aircraft over the Alps. Read up on the Curtiss C-46 and the Hump in Burma.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                  ...Nothing wrong with flying the aircraft over the Alps...
                  Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                  ...it's not like Tante Ju is exactly an awesome performer even with all three running. At sea level. On a cold day...
                  Can...Should...

                  Safe...Safer...Not as safe...Reckless...

                  Dude with PPL only flies 172's with unreliable vacuum pumps within 50 miles on sunny afternoons...dude gets an instrument rating and a Bonanza with backup gyros and electronic weather radar wizardly AND get's all the great training...

                  Low time, puppy mill graduates run up great safety records in conventional RJs...Experienced, big-iron guys pull up relentlessly in super automated Airbi...

                  Oh the gray-scale, trade-off, interactional ironing.
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                    Can...Should...

                    Safe...Safer...Not as safe...Reckless...

                    Dude with PPL only flies 172's with unreliable vacuum pumps within 50 miles on sunny afternoons...dude gets an instrument rating and a Bonanza with backup gyros and electronic weather radar wizardly AND get's all the great training...

                    Low time, puppy mill graduates run up great safety records in conventional RJs...Experienced, big-iron guys pull up relentlessly in super automated Airbi...

                    Oh the gray-scale, trade-off, interactional ironing.
                    Whatever you say. Ignorance is always bliss.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      Ignorance is always bliss.
                      I think that's generally true, because it's clear you don't understand much about safety statistics and trends.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        I think that's generally true, because it's clear you don't understand much about safety statistics and trends.
                        You will never understand so I won't bother.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The communication barrier between 2 guys from Miami FL and St Louis MO is amazing. Text lacks body language, intonation, volume, pauses, etc...

                          I am sure you 2 would get along so well face to face and with a beer.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Most people that fly do so because they have the passion. Until you have flown alone with just you and the aircraft you cannot understand. Statistics, if you were that worried about them then you probably would never get in your Toyota and get on the street. The most dangerous part of any airplane ride is the drive to and from the airport. Brakes (I guess I never get to live this one down for forgetting after not being in the aircraft for a year and some, but hey my wife brings up shit I did 30 plus years ago. And I am sure you have never in your life done anything like that.) I get to fly a friends restored Curtiss Jenny, know what ? I doesn't have ANY brakes at all.

                            You actually remind me of an old joke that my father told me years ago. You know the person that ALWAYS finds fault in anything that you do? You bought something and you for sure paid too much. If you did not get it at the store they shop at it is the worst place in the world. No matter what you did they did it before you and it was bigger and better when they were there or did it. My wife calls it a one upper.

                            So this woman goes to her hair dresser (3WE) to get her hair done. She tells her that her husband is taking her on a trip to Rome for a week. She says I really want to look good for my trip. The hair dresser says how are you getting there? We are flying on Continental she says. Oh you don’t want to go on Continental, their airplanes are really old and the service is terrible. Where are you going to stay in Rome? We have a room at the Excelsior Hotel, it is right down the street from the Vatican. Oh I know that place, it is old and rundown, and not in the best part of town. Well it is close and we have tickets to see the Pope so we want to be close. See the Pope! You will be sitting 150 rows away from the stage, he is going to look like an ant and you are going to have to fight the crowds to get in and out.

                            The next month she returns to get her hair done again. So how was the trip to Rome? Continental really stunk didn’t it? Well actually when we got to the gate they told us the flight was going to be delayed for around 30 minutes because they had to replace the aircraft. See I told you there is always a problem with Continental. Well when we were boarding they told us they were going to have to change our seats because this 777 had just had a new interior put in and it had less business class seats, so they upgraded us to first class. It was wonderful, the food and the service were excellent. Well what about the hotel did I tell you or what? When we arrived they told us that they were just finishing some renovations and that our suite was not finished yet so they gave us the Presidential suite, it was incredible! And when you went to see the Pope, crowded and he looked like an ant? Well that is a story in itself. We got there an hour early so we could walk around a bit. As we were admiring some of the artwork two of the Swiss Guards approached us and asked us if we would like to meet the Pope. Of course we accepted the invitation. They explained to us that once a week the Pope likes to have a couple of people come into his office for a private seating. You got to meet the Pope? What did he say to you? You know what the first thing he said was? WHO FUCKED UP YOUR HAIR?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              No trying to be your hairdresser, but just to be factual...

                              Most people that fly do so because they have the passion. Until you have flown alone with just you and the aircraft you cannot understand.
                              I agree. And 3WE has been there and done that.

                              Statistics, if you were that worried about them then you probably would never get in your Toyota and get on the street. The most dangerous part of any airplane ride is the drive to and from the airport.
                              That is true for commercial aviation. The safety record of commercial aviation (pax and cargo) is unbelievable good, even after you include turboprops, Russian planes, and Africa.

                              However, for General Aviation (excluding Business Aviation run by professional aviation departments, which have a safety record comparable with commercial aviation), the safety record is lame at best, many orders of magnitude that commercial or business aviation, worse than car safety by an order of magnitude, and comparable with motorcycle safety records (that is, 7 times worse than car safety). And the worst part is within experimental+vintage+warbirds subset of general aviation, where I guess this Junkers would fall.

                              I am sure that if you divided the GA pilots in two sets: one with the pilots that take aviation more seriously, don't do stupid tricks, have at least a basic understanding and application or risk management which includes a conservative approach, and a tendency to follow procedures, rules and best practices, and another set with the opposite, then you would see huge different in the safety records of both sets, then possibly the record of the first set may be better than cars, but nowhere close to commercial aviation simply because it is a much more restricted and regulated activity that has so much more backups, redundancy and levels of safety. I have never seen a study in this regards, but it just makes sense.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                No trying to be your hairdresser
                                I have seen your haircut so I think I will keep mine thanks!

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