Vintage JU-52 aircraft crashes in Swiss Alps

[BoeingBobby]

How well does that when you're stalled?

Pretty sure I said a descending turn. Drop the nose pick up the airspeed and turn at the same time. Not that difficult a manuver.

[Evan]

Why can't you turn?

How well does that work when you're stalled?

[BoeingBobby]

Well, share some of your brilliance with me. You are approaching that pass. A gust knocks your airspeed out from under you and you enter a stall. You can't climb. You can't turn. You can't descend. You can't power out of it.

What would BoeingBobby do (aside from never being there in the first place)?

Why can't you turn? Canyon is not that narrow. Descending 180 and go back the way you came. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. However, I think we need LH's opinion because after all this was a German built aircraft, and he probably has flown the scenario on his flight simulator.

[Evan]

Brilliant statement! Proves my point about your knowledge of actual pilotage.

Well, share some of your brilliance with me. You are approaching that pass. A gust knocks your airspeed out from under you and you enter a stall. You can't climb. You can't turn. You can't descend. You can't power out of it.

What would BoeingBobby do (aside from never being there in the first place)?

[BoeingBobby]

Have you seen this mountainside? There was no way to pilot out of this one, once the pilots had piloted themselves into it.

Brilliant statement! Proves my point about your knowledge of actual pilotage.

[3WE]

Have you seen this mountainside? There was no way to pilot out of this one, once the pilots had piloted themselves into it.

Someone suggested that full power and targeting an optimal climb speed might have gotten them over the pass.

While I didn’t make the suggestion, it seems a lot smarter than reducing power and spinning in. I do concur that something was lacking with this bunch- perhaps they were too accustomed to having after-burners.

[3WE]

No. In certain circumstances, a controlled crash into a mountainside can be survivable. The prospect is not good, of course, but the chances are better than a spin and a vertical crash at the bottom.

The really crappy part is when they don’t rescue you and you have to eat dead folks.

[Evan]

No. In certain circumstances, a controlled crash into a mountainside can be survivable. The prospect is not good, of course, but the chances are better than a spin and a vertical crash at the bottom.

Have you seen this mountainside? There was no way to pilot out of this one, once the pilots had piloted themselves into it.

[Gabriel]

Ok, I concede it is probably better to die instantly by slamming into a granite-faced alpine mountain than to experience the terror of diving into a valley. If that's what you mean.

No. In certain circumstances, a controlled crash into a mountainside can be survivable. The prospect is not good, of course, but the chances are better than a spin and a vertical crash at the bottom.

[Evan]

Yes.

Ok, I concede it is probably better to die instantly by slamming into a granite-faced alpine mountain than to experience the terror of diving into a valley. If that's what you mean. Kind of a Hobson's choice though.

[Gabriel]

Face it. The gross pilot error here was being there in the first place. ANY pilot, regardless of background, who had safely firmly in mind would not have been there.

With that I agree, and it speaks as much about the operator as it does about the pilots (who, hint, always have to be pilots that are compatible with the operator).
Especially since that was the "normal" way for them to operate.

[Gabriel]

Really? It's better to crash into a mountainside under control than to crash into a valley out of control?

Yes.

[Gabriel]

You mean during sudden windshear? You mean monitoring the sudden drop in airspeed would have saved them?

Did you actually read the full description of the events in AVH or you stopped at "the military pilots crew it up"? The condition had been deteriorating for some time with the pilots increasingly pulling up to compensate for the descending air currents. The last updraft, to which the pilots didn't react correctly either, was just the last straw that broke the camel's neck.

But for me the most important part was that the operator as a whole was operating with a very poor safety culture. In that context, pilots operate with a very poor safety culture no matter if they are ex-military or not. Because pilots that want to keep high standards when flying for an operator with a poor safety culture either end up lowering their standards or resign or are fired.

[Evan]

It's generally better to crash in control than out of control.

There's some truth there.

Really? It's better to crash into a mountainside under control than to crash into a valley out of control?

Face it. The gross pilot error here was being there in the first place. ANY pilot, regardless of background, who had safely firmly in mind would not have been there.

[3WE]

You mean monitoring the sudden drop in airspeed would have saved them?

Short answer: Yes.

Footnote: Sorry, but monitoring airspeed is directly linked to maintaining airspeed in my mind, not a type-specific checklist of 1. Monitor, 2. A if fast then, B. If about right, then C. if too slow, then.....I'm sorry that these sorts of things can't be reconciled in your mind. I find the linkage to be quite natural.

Long answer:

-We know you don't listen to me (that's fine)
-We know you don't listen to professional pilots (that's sad)
-BUT I THOUGHT YOU LISTENED TO GABRIEL
-Oh, that's right, you don't listen much at all.

It's generally better to crash in control than out of control.

There's some truth there, although arguably diving straight into the ground resulted in a much quicker death with little to no pain versus hitting mountainsides in control?

The report said the pilots slowed up and reduced power while descending. I dunno the type specific checklist for a Junkers, but that would seem to be a way to improve your ability to stall. Had they powered up and kept their speed up...JMO, but maybe they don't stall.

Am I absolutely certain they could have avoided a crash? No, but the report talks about the pilots reducing speed and power and talks about updrafts and downdrafts MORE THAN HORRENDOUS SPEED-LOSS WIND SHEARS.

Gabriel: Any opinion?

Anyway, never mind, the crash was caused by systematic deviation from procedures by military folks who live to ignore procedure.