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Vintage JU-52 aircraft crashes in Swiss Alps

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  • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    No. In certain circumstances, a controlled crash into a mountainside can be survivable. The prospect is not good, of course, but the chances are better than a spin and a vertical crash at the bottom.
    Have you seen this mountainside? There was no way to pilot out of this one, once the pilots had piloted themselves into it.

    Click image for larger version

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    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      No. In certain circumstances, a controlled crash into a mountainside can be survivable. The prospect is not good, of course, but the chances are better than a spin and a vertical crash at the bottom.
      The really crappy part is when they don’t rescue you and you have to eat dead folks.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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      • Originally posted by Evan View Post

        Have you seen this mountainside? There was no way to pilot out of this one, once the pilots had piloted themselves into it.
        Someone suggested that full power and targeting an optimal climb speed might have gotten them over the pass.

        While I didn’t make the suggestion, it seems a lot smarter than reducing power and spinning in. I do concur that something was lacking with this bunch- perhaps they were too accustomed to having after-burners.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • Originally posted by Evan View Post

          Have you seen this mountainside? There was no way to pilot out of this one, once the pilots had piloted themselves into it.

          Click image for larger version

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          Brilliant statement! Proves my point about your knowledge of actual pilotage.

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          • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

            Brilliant statement! Proves my point about your knowledge of actual pilotage.
            Well, share some of your brilliance with me. You are approaching that pass. A gust knocks your airspeed out from under you and you enter a stall. You can't climb. You can't turn. You can't descend. You can't power out of it.

            What would BoeingBobby do (aside from never being there in the first place)?

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            • Originally posted by Evan View Post

              Well, share some of your brilliance with me. You are approaching that pass. A gust knocks your airspeed out from under you and you enter a stall. You can't climb. You can't turn. You can't descend. You can't power out of it.

              What would BoeingBobby do (aside from never being there in the first place)?
              Why can't you turn? Canyon is not that narrow. Descending 180 and go back the way you came. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. However, I think we need LH's opinion because after all this was a German built aircraft, and he probably has flown the scenario on his flight simulator.

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              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                Why can't you turn?
                How well does that work when you're stalled?

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                • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                  How well does that when you're stalled?
                  Pretty sure I said a descending turn. Drop the nose pick up the airspeed and turn at the same time. Not that difficult a manuver.

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                  • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                    Pretty sure I said a descending turn. Drop the nose pick up the airspeed and turn at the same time. Not that difficult a manuver.
                    This would go hand in hand with monitoring and maintaining airspeed...not separate items, but some extremely basic integrated airpersonship.

                    But, never mind- All pilots cowboys, especially ex-military. Pilots bad, ban all airplanes or make them autonomous.

                    Now, for those interested in discussion, did I read somewhere that they may have been too hemmed in to turn (or almost too hemmed in)???
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                      Pretty sure I said a descending turn. Drop the nose pick up the airspeed and turn at the same time. Not that difficult a manuver.
                      Perhaps not with a couple thousand feet and a wide piece of sky to play with, but how is that going to work in [allow me to quote the final report] a narrow valley at low altitude and with no possibility of an alternative flight path?

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                      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        Now, for those interested in discussion, did I read somewhere that they may have been too hemmed in to turn (or almost too hemmed in)???
                        Not sure what " hemmed" is, but according to the official investigation they didn't have room to turn back and didn't have any alternative escape route, the pass was the only option.

                        On 4 August 2018, a historic Junkers Ju 52 commercial aircraft, operated by Ju-Air, crashed near Flims in the Swiss Alps. All 20 people on board lost their l...


                        Also according to the official investigation, they still had a reserve or engine power that they did not use.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                          Pretty sure I said a descending turn. Drop the nose pick up the airspeed and turn at the same time. Not that difficult a manuver.
                          Specifically, BoeingBobby, your altitude is 125m at the onset of stall. At the onset of stall you were already in a negative flight path angle. At stall entry you are in an increasing left-hand turn, which continues to increase despite significant right aileron.

                          And you're going to fly out of that? I'd really like to learn how that is done.

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                          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

                            Not sure what " hemmed" is.
                            Two words: Hemmed IN.

                            Figure of speech.

                            Hemming is a sewing operation on folded fabric...if you are inside the fold and stitched area you are “hemmed in” to a tight area and can’t get out.

                            You can also be hemmed in in a tight parking place and unable to open the door- or in a middle seat in third class on an airliner...or in a 737-Max Lavatory.

                            Thank you for confirming my fuzzy memory that they were too hemmed in (too tight) to allow for a “180” like Bobby describes.

                            I still vote with you- full power, Vx INSTEAD OF powering back AND pulling up...
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                              Specifically, BoeingBobby, your altitude is 125m at the onset of stall. At the onset of stall you were already in a negative flight path angle. At stall entry you are in an increasing left-hand turn, which continues to increase despite significant right aileron.

                              And you're going to fly out of that? I'd really like to learn how that is done.
                              125m is almost 400'. Might be enough to at least get enough airspeed to crash the thing under control.

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                              • I am looking at the photograph. It doesn't look that narrow to me, although it is a photograph and I've not been there. I would have stood that bitch on a wing tip, and at least tried to get out of there. Of course I'm a cowboy pilot, aren't I.

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