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Horizon Q400 Crashes After Being Stolen From Sea-Tac

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    You don'teed to the rudder pedals to make a turn.
    Is that what I said?

    You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?

    I'm reading on pilot foums that he appears to be doing that. (for what those are worth)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Is that what I said?

      You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?

      I'm reading on pilot foums that he appears to be doing that. (for what those are worth)
      I don't know that aircraft at all however, I think what Gabriel is inferring is that the aircraft more than likely has a yaw damper system. As long as both engines are running at pretty close to the same power setting, the correct amount of rudder will be imputed automatically. Again, I do not know this aircraft or what systems it has installed, as for the aerobatic maneuvers that were done, that don't count.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Is that what I said?

        You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?

        I'm reading on pilot foums that he appears to be doing that. (for what those are worth)
        Yes...I recall that from my very first flying lesson...I know I was young and thirsty for knowledge, but a little right rudder for torque, don't pull up relentlessly, use aileron to INITIATE a turn, but then center it while the plane maintains it's bank, let's do a stall and recover by measured nose-down inputs, the plane has climb and dive behavior (just like a paper airplane)..and if I "lock" the nose on the horizon it stops...use coordinated aileron and rudder inputs (even though very little happens if you are not coordinated (a ball swings and you have slight sideways acceleration feelings)).

        What you have said is that you are very impressed that he could fly a plane that doesn't have a yaw-damper/automatic rudder...Bobby may frown on me, but it's not that big of a deal to go around plowing through the air with crappy rudder technique...hell, look at the youtubes of crosswind landings...so what if you decrab or not...doesn't really matter all that much. (Ok, it sucks for passenger comfort and identifies you as a crappy stick and rudder pilot).

        I suppose your feelings on his amazing rudder technique are consistent with you not being able to understand that someone might want to move rudder pedals an inch or so if they plane got yawed from wake turbulence- and that to do so is an indication cowboy idiocy.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          ...I don't know that aircraft at all however,...Again, I do not know this aircraft or what systems it has installed...
          Evan is saying that the Q-400 lacks some sort of automatic rudder control system that other aircraft tend to have- and expressing amazement that a rampie was able to deal with a "manual"..(errrr "pedusial?) rudder.

          While I often disagree with his implications and opinions, (AND as you have stated) he is pretty good at Googling type-specific detail stuff (while at -8 ft AGL and zero knots in his basement).
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            Every airplane has a turn=coordination and it is called fin.
            Every airplane?

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northr...man_B-2_Spirit
            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
              I don't know that aircraft at all however, I think what Gabriel is inferring is that the aircraft more than likely has a yaw damper system. As long as both engines are running at pretty close to the same power setting, the correct amount of rudder will be imputed automatically. Again, I do not know this aircraft or what systems it has installed, as for the aerobatic maneuvers that were done, that don't count.
              Yes, the Q has a yaw damper but AFAIK it is a very limited one that cannot coordinate the kind of turns we are seeing in these videos.

              What I am saying is that [some people who might be pilots] have remarked that this guy appears to be doing steep coordinated turns, and that would seem to indicate a practiced familiarity with the interactions of arms, legs, yokes and rudder pedals, as opposed to fingers, joysticks and arrow keys.

              Yes, a lot of flightdesk SIM junkies have pedals but the perception that this guy had only "played some video games" seems a little understated.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                ***steep coordinated turns***
                See repeated comments from more than one poster that planes tend to automatically coordinate themselves from pure aerodynamics...

                The fundamental, broad concept that you establish a bank, and then neutralize controls and the plane maintains fairly stable, coordinated turn. (I know, no hope for that concept to register since I used a generality).

                ...by the way, the bigger tricks to steep turns are healthy airspeeds + measured pull ups...not_so much what you do with rudder pedals. There may be some valid debate how much time he spent doing measured pull ups on "some video games".
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?
                  Naaaah.... not really.

                  You need rudder to:
                  - Compensate any kind of thrust asymmetry (including engine differential thrust, p-factor, torque, as slipstream wash).
                  - Generate intentional uncoordinated flight like in spins, slips, skids, aligning the plane with the runway heading in a crosswind landing, etc.
                  - Compensate for weather-vane effect during ground handling with crosswind.
                  - Compensate for adverse yaw, which is the tendency of the plane to yaw in the opposite direction than the ailerons are deflected, and is more significant a low speeds and high ailerons deflections. Turns are normally initiated smoothly, with small roll rates and hence small ailerons deflections that don't need rudder input (any use of rudder would probably be an overkill generating an uncoordination in the opposite direction).
                  - To demonstrate "coordination" to our instructors and flight examiners. "Coordination" is a flight training maneuver where the plane is quickly banked 30 deg to one side and immediately 30 degrees to the other side repeated times, with no stop in between. So the ailerons are never left centered, you never establish a turn, and high deflection of ailerons is used. The idea is to demonstrate your use of rudder to keep the plane coordinated throughout the maneuver.

                  During normal turns, once the ailerons are centered, the fin keeps the plane almost perfectly coordinated, and whatever remains for perfect coordination is barely detectable if at all.
                  Basically, pilots keep the rudder centered during turns.

                  Depending on the plane, you also may need the rudder to damp the Dutch roll. This mode of motion is either highly damped naturally (so you don't need to use the rudder pedals) or the plane has a yaw damper (so you don't need the rudder pedals either).

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    Yes, the Q has a yaw damper but AFAIK it is a very limited one that cannot coordinate the kind of turns we are seeing in these videos.

                    What I am saying is that [some people who might be pilots] have remarked that this guy appears to be doing steep coordinated turns, and that would seem to indicate a practiced familiarity with the interactions of arms, legs, yokes and rudder pedals, as opposed to fingers, joysticks and arrow keys.

                    Yes, a lot of flightdesk SIM junkies have pedals but the perception that this guy had only "played some video games" seems a little understated.
                    In the videos that I saw I saw a lot of extreme attitudes in pitch and bank including what looked a mixture between a looping and an aileron roll or barrel roll. But I don't see very fast roll rates.
                    Steep coordinated turns don't require rudder to remain coordinated. Brisk rolls do require rudder to keep the plane coordinated during the roll, especially at slower speeds, and this guy seems to have been flying quite fast.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment

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