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Horizon Q400 Crashes After Being Stolen From Sea-Tac

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  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Yes, the Q has a yaw damper but AFAIK it is a very limited one that cannot coordinate the kind of turns we are seeing in these videos.

    What I am saying is that [some people who might be pilots] have remarked that this guy appears to be doing steep coordinated turns, and that would seem to indicate a practiced familiarity with the interactions of arms, legs, yokes and rudder pedals, as opposed to fingers, joysticks and arrow keys.

    Yes, a lot of flightdesk SIM junkies have pedals but the perception that this guy had only "played some video games" seems a little understated.
    In the videos that I saw I saw a lot of extreme attitudes in pitch and bank including what looked a mixture between a looping and an aileron roll or barrel roll. But I don't see very fast roll rates.
    Steep coordinated turns don't require rudder to remain coordinated. Brisk rolls do require rudder to keep the plane coordinated during the roll, especially at slower speeds, and this guy seems to have been flying quite fast.

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  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?
    Naaaah.... not really.

    You need rudder to:
    - Compensate any kind of thrust asymmetry (including engine differential thrust, p-factor, torque, as slipstream wash).
    - Generate intentional uncoordinated flight like in spins, slips, skids, aligning the plane with the runway heading in a crosswind landing, etc.
    - Compensate for weather-vane effect during ground handling with crosswind.
    - Compensate for adverse yaw, which is the tendency of the plane to yaw in the opposite direction than the ailerons are deflected, and is more significant a low speeds and high ailerons deflections. Turns are normally initiated smoothly, with small roll rates and hence small ailerons deflections that don't need rudder input (any use of rudder would probably be an overkill generating an uncoordination in the opposite direction).
    - To demonstrate "coordination" to our instructors and flight examiners. "Coordination" is a flight training maneuver where the plane is quickly banked 30 deg to one side and immediately 30 degrees to the other side repeated times, with no stop in between. So the ailerons are never left centered, you never establish a turn, and high deflection of ailerons is used. The idea is to demonstrate your use of rudder to keep the plane coordinated throughout the maneuver.

    During normal turns, once the ailerons are centered, the fin keeps the plane almost perfectly coordinated, and whatever remains for perfect coordination is barely detectable if at all.
    Basically, pilots keep the rudder centered during turns.

    Depending on the plane, you also may need the rudder to damp the Dutch roll. This mode of motion is either highly damped naturally (so you don't need to use the rudder pedals) or the plane has a yaw damper (so you don't need the rudder pedals either).

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  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ***steep coordinated turns***
    See repeated comments from more than one poster that planes tend to automatically coordinate themselves from pure aerodynamics...

    The fundamental, broad concept that you establish a bank, and then neutralize controls and the plane maintains fairly stable, coordinated turn. (I know, no hope for that concept to register since I used a generality).

    ...by the way, the bigger tricks to steep turns are healthy airspeeds + measured pull ups...not_so much what you do with rudder pedals. There may be some valid debate how much time he spent doing measured pull ups on "some video games".

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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I don't know that aircraft at all however, I think what Gabriel is inferring is that the aircraft more than likely has a yaw damper system. As long as both engines are running at pretty close to the same power setting, the correct amount of rudder will be imputed automatically. Again, I do not know this aircraft or what systems it has installed, as for the aerobatic maneuvers that were done, that don't count.
    Yes, the Q has a yaw damper but AFAIK it is a very limited one that cannot coordinate the kind of turns we are seeing in these videos.

    What I am saying is that [some people who might be pilots] have remarked that this guy appears to be doing steep coordinated turns, and that would seem to indicate a practiced familiarity with the interactions of arms, legs, yokes and rudder pedals, as opposed to fingers, joysticks and arrow keys.

    Yes, a lot of flightdesk SIM junkies have pedals but the perception that this guy had only "played some video games" seems a little understated.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Every airplane has a turn=coordination and it is called fin.
    Every airplane?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northr...man_B-2_Spirit

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    ...I don't know that aircraft at all however,...Again, I do not know this aircraft or what systems it has installed...
    Evan is saying that the Q-400 lacks some sort of automatic rudder control system that other aircraft tend to have- and expressing amazement that a rampie was able to deal with a "manual"..(errrr "pedusial?) rudder.

    While I often disagree with his implications and opinions, (AND as you have stated) he is pretty good at Googling type-specific detail stuff (while at -8 ft AGL and zero knots in his basement).

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Is that what I said?

    You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?

    I'm reading on pilot foums that he appears to be doing that. (for what those are worth)
    Yes...I recall that from my very first flying lesson...I know I was young and thirsty for knowledge, but a little right rudder for torque, don't pull up relentlessly, use aileron to INITIATE a turn, but then center it while the plane maintains it's bank, let's do a stall and recover by measured nose-down inputs, the plane has climb and dive behavior (just like a paper airplane)..and if I "lock" the nose on the horizon it stops...use coordinated aileron and rudder inputs (even though very little happens if you are not coordinated (a ball swings and you have slight sideways acceleration feelings)).

    What you have said is that you are very impressed that he could fly a plane that doesn't have a yaw-damper/automatic rudder...Bobby may frown on me, but it's not that big of a deal to go around plowing through the air with crappy rudder technique...hell, look at the youtubes of crosswind landings...so what if you decrab or not...doesn't really matter all that much. (Ok, it sucks for passenger comfort and identifies you as a crappy stick and rudder pilot).

    I suppose your feelings on his amazing rudder technique are consistent with you not being able to understand that someone might want to move rudder pedals an inch or so if they plane got yawed from wake turbulence- and that to do so is an indication cowboy idiocy.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Is that what I said?

    You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?

    I'm reading on pilot foums that he appears to be doing that. (for what those are worth)
    I don't know that aircraft at all however, I think what Gabriel is inferring is that the aircraft more than likely has a yaw damper system. As long as both engines are running at pretty close to the same power setting, the correct amount of rudder will be imputed automatically. Again, I do not know this aircraft or what systems it has installed, as for the aerobatic maneuvers that were done, that don't count.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    You don'teed to the rudder pedals to make a turn.
    Is that what I said?

    You do need rudder to make coordinated turns, i.e. without slipping toward the downward wing, correct?

    I'm reading on pilot foums that he appears to be doing that. (for what those are worth)

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Every airplane has a turn=coordination and it is called fin.
    You don'teed to the rudder pedals to make a turn.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ***He must have known how to use the rudder***
    I do not know the type specific operation of the rudder on a Q-400, thus I have no business commenting.

    I will however speculate that if one presses the right pedal, the nose will move towards the right, (with the opposite occurring with the left pedal)?

    There might be some dihedral angle on the wings- giving it a tendency to bank- and maybe even tend to establish a nice coordinated turn after what might be a not-so-coordinated entry?

    Since this does not have automated stuff [How dare they sell such a thing], I wonder if the plane might have an instrument to indicate if a turn is coordinated or not? There may (or may not) be some applicable rule of thumb that is phrased "step on the ball"?

    Given that we have bright little kids reciting amazing stuff in the cockpit of big airplanes, maybe Mr. Rampie understood a few broad fundamentals?

    But hey, this is just BS for a 1976 Canadian-bound 172M With a 160 HP Lycoming O-320-E2D with MPH on the ASI...so, probably no relevance...

    PS: I considered lengthening this to discuss airspeed color codlings and rough attitudes for climb, rough distances down the runway and [Dear God no!] the phrase, "The plane will tell you when it's ready to fly."

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
    not being unsympathetic to the guy's issues, but pretty damn impressive flying for a guy the apparently never flew anything
    He must have had a pretty good sim set-up then. The Q400 doesn't do the turn-coordination for you like larger jets. He must have known how to use the rudder and I don't think you get that with a joystick and some arrow keys.

    On the other hand, the Q has automated features like FADEC to make engine start simple, electronic prop control, no reciprocating engine issues like mixture to deal with and an FMC to give you speed bugs, etc.

    And of course gobs of power to cover your ass. At ferry weights, I've read that the Q can get 7000fpm and around 25-27 in the initial climb. I'm thinking he had a TOW around 40,000lbs with 10,000hp at his disposal.

    And I guess disposal is probably the right word here.

    Could he have pulled this off in a JU-52?

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    Can we put a lock and chain on the gear? Cockpit? for whenever the plane is parked? Controlling the keys (or codes) would still be a challenge.
    Ironically, the Q400 is one of the few large passengers planes with a throttle ground-lock. It's not something you need a key for, but it does require you to know how to release the gust lock lever to move the throttles levers beyond flight idle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    Gabriel, you could have at least got it back in one piece.
    This guy didn't even wanted to try to get it back in one piece. He just thought of having some fun, committing suicide, sending a message, and not hurting anybody else in the process,all at the same time. And he succeeded.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LLm...ature=youtu.be
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZC8...ature=youtu.be

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    Unfortunately, Bobby probably missed out on the legendary "Can a Dummy Land an Airliner" thread that appeared on an obscure and long-gone aviation forum.

    A poor unfortunate mainline pilot (with a magnificent sense of humor) nearly lost his sanity and was driven to being a quiet and infrequent- albeit always brill-yunt- forumite by the experience.

    As we outsiders hen-pecked him we began to ask where to draw the line...

    You have a private license...you grossly familiarize yourself via a NON_PCATD-Approved sim...you rehearse a particular scenario (mentally and for real)...you are handed a working simulated airliner, configured, trimmed and somewhat on course and on target...maybe a Dummy...a somewhat educated dummy...can land a 747 on a big runway

    However, Gabriel has no flight sim, and hasn't flown in over a year. And it was not "beginners luck". Still not an easy task when the a/c weighs over 600000 pounds.

    Leave a comment:

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