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Cessna 414 Crash at KSNA

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  • Cessna 414 Crash at KSNA

    Has anyone unearthed pertinent data about the Cessna 414 crash at Santa Ana? Specifically, I'm interested in the nature of the emergency declared by the pilot. I believe the 'emergency' was the spin viewed in the video, and did not entail engine or other aircraft component failures.

  • #2
    Originally posted by daveyl123 View Post
    Has anyone unearthed pertinent data about the Cessna 414 crash at Santa Ana? Specifically, I'm interested in the nature of the emergency declared by the pilot. I believe the 'emergency' was the spin viewed in the video, and did not entail engine or other aircraft component failures.
    What video? When did the crash happen?

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #3
      The crash occurred August 5th, 2018. The video was from a dash cam at the mall parking lot. The image clearly was of the aircraft spinning vertically to the ground.

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      • #4
        Found, I don't think that anybody can answer your question at this point.

        https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=214088

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #5
          Probably not. Witnesses claimed the aircraft banked sharply before the spin developed. The key to unraveling the nature of the emergency would be comparisons of time between the video image chronometer (If any..) and the tower tape.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by daveyl123 View Post
            The key to unraveling the nature of the emergency would be comparisons of time between the video image chronometer (If any..) and the tower tape.
            Have you notified the NTSB? I'd hate to think they're going in the wrong direction on this, or, even worse, spinning their wheels...

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            • #7
              Evan:

              Please note: A multi engine aircraft may have lost an engine (maybe not), and then rolled out of control.

              But we should not think beyond Vmc / V-2 in any way at all.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • #8
                No. The NTSB will hold their probable cause cards close to their vest. They'll take years to publish their findings. Witness statements described a steep bank around 1000 feet AGL just prior to the spin. My guess would be the pilot had little time to effect a recovery, and that his declaring an emergency was due to that spin condition.
                Last edited by daveyl123; 2018-09-12, 05:31. Reason: Proper grammar

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                • #9
                  Yes, of course. I'm a Commercial, Multi-Engine, Instrument Rated pilot, so that aspect of twins I know well. My avocation is studying aircraft accidents. When a major mishap occurs, I'll take a stab at a probable cause, and await the NTSB's findings to see how close my guess was. There is one crucial element of an accident that will significantly aid my efforts: A Video. Show me a video of the mishap sequence, and I can come pretty close to the Probable Cause.
                  Last edited by daveyl123; 2018-09-12, 04:41. Reason: Proper grammar

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by daveyl123 View Post
                    Probably not. Witnesses claimed the aircraft banked sharply before the spin developed. I believe the 'emergency' was the spin viewed in the video, and did not entail engine or other aircraft component failures. The key to unraveling the nature of the emergency would be comparisons of time between the video image chronometer (If any..) and the tower tape.
                    - I doubt that witnesses would be able to tell "a sharp bank before the spin" from a bank caused by one wing stalling marking the onset of the spin itself.
                    - Other than a simple stall-spin accident, you can have an engine failure followed by loss of control, for which the most typical sequence is flying below Vmc, loss of yaw control, followed by loss of roll control. This looks very similar to a roll+spin from the outside.
                    - IF an engine failed, the loss of control may have happened quickly thereafter, so maybe yes, the pilot declared emergency while spinning to the ground.
                    - I have no idea why you tend to dismiss the possibility of engine failure. Sure, there are ways to loss control without any technical failure, but I see nothing whatsoever in the info available that would make the loss of an engine particularly unlikely. (as a side note, even if an engine did fail, that by itself is not enough to cause the LOC and accident).
                    - Finally, unless the clock of the camera is synchronized with that of the ATC tapes (which I will take a guess it wasn't), I don't see how comparison between these 2 clocks will eb of any help. We are talking seconds here.

                    Here you have a couple accident that involve what looks like a sharp bank followed by a spin.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQeVoXU3ZI8

                    One for the involved an engine failure. The other one I don't know for sure but I strongly suspect it did.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      Evan:

                      But we should not think beyond Vmc / V-2 in any way at all.
                      Why would you say that? The plane was on approach, not take-off.

                      https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=214088

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                      • #12
                        True. People who don't fly planes would not understand aircraft attitudes during certain maneuvers, but the witness was positive about the bank angle, and used hand gestures to describe his assessment of the aircraft attitude. The flight was given a holding instruction by the tower which entailed "360 degree turns" at 1300 feet for spacing prior to the landing clearance. According to the report, the aircraft was in the process of leaving the hold. So, you would have a combination of low airspeed, banking to align the aircraft for landing and low altitude. It is possible that the attempt to position the plane on final included a high bank angle that precipitated a stall. I'm only guessing, but that is an avenue to explore.

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                        • #13
                          Engine out, VMC spins are usually flatter. The pilot did not state he had problems with the engines during the hold or prior to this crash. Fuel is a possible factor, because no fire erupted during the post impact portion of the video. However, the question that remains is when the emergency was declared. I would suggest that the pilot transmitted "emergency" during the spin.
                          Last edited by daveyl123; 2018-09-12, 18:08. Reason: Proper grammar

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by daveyl123 View Post
                            Yes, of course. I'm a Commercial, Multi-Engine, Instrument Rated pilot, so that aspect of twins I know well. My avocation is studying aircraft accidents. When a major mishap occurs, I'll take a stab at a probable cause, and await the NTSB's findings to see how close my guess was.
                            Hmmm.

                            A few quick questions:

                            1. How long as this been your avocation?
                            2. How long have you been aware of this forum?
                            3. Are you a native English speaker?

                            Regarding #2- you will find that this (and most other) open Internet discussion forums on aviation safety to be a hot stinking mess of pseudo experts (me included)(who may share some of your interests and various (possibly low) levels of knowledge)...and I don't know that we are any better at digging up reliable data than you doing a Google search.

                            We also have a small compliment of actual insider professionals who spend a lot of time rightfully laughing at the amateurs.

                            Regarding #3- Your post #5, "The key is aligning the tower tapes to the video" reads a bit strange...

                            THE KEY? ATL commented- it comes off as though no one ever thought of that- even though it's sort of obvious.

                            I think maybe this was more of a rhetorical question from you...did the guy call Mayday and go out of control or go out of control and then call Mayday. Yes, we need to know that in order to better understand what might have happened.

                            Keep your sense of humour AND a pair of tall rubber boots handy...we will discuss aviation safety.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • #15
                              "How long has this been your avocation?" Oh, about 30 years. "How long have you been aware of this forum?" 2 days. "Are you a native English speaker?" Yes.

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