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  • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    I guess it was either completely over your head, or lost on you. I was agreeing to your statement for once. Captain keyboard!
    It wasn't lost on me. I'm just saying this is not just a hindsight thing. It was a foresight failure.

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    • If people flew on Delta's 40-year old (ex NWA) DC-9's, they'll fly on anything. I do wonder if the airlines (or even Boeing) will remove the visible -MAX branding as a result of this. That brand is toooast.

      Maybe MinLav...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Evan View Post

        It wasn't lost on me. I'm just saying this is not just a hindsight thing. It was a foresight failure.
        You are not from this side of the pond, are you?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          What is that old saying about hindsight?
          "Always plan no matter how improbable it seems. The bill for hindsight is much more expensive than the receipt for foresight.” - Johnnie Dent Jr.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

            You are not from this side of the pond, are you?
            That depends upon which way I'm flying (or, in ATL's theory, sailing).

            Comment


            • Here's an article that sums up the inherent problem at Boeing in the 21st century, which, not coincidentally, is the inherent problem with off-the-chain, selfish, greedy, shortsighted, executive-survival-driven capitalism in general:

              Originally posted by Short-Term Thinking Is Poisoning American Business
              A 2006 study conducted by economists at Duke University found that 78 percent of executives at public companies said that they would sacrifice long-term economic value for a short-term lift in share price.
              https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/21/o...rs-warren.html

              There is a glimmer of hope that market forces might correct this, but that will require widespread wisdom, which isn't in great supply out there.

              Comment


              • You really have it in for Boeing don't you?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                  You really have it in for Boeing don't you?
                  Actually, I've said this before. I do not have it in for Boeing. I want Boeing to purge its management cancer and realize the potential of its engineers. I'm looking forward the the NMA and the 737 replacement. I don't want to see Boeing lose its position as an innovation leader. I don't want anyone outside of management to suffer from this.

                  And I want to fly in better, safer, less destructive airplanes. The 737 had its day and served us well. I never thought it would be dragged into the 21st century though.

                  But it really angers me how a group of cynical business execs have taken over the company and oriented it toward short-term wealth building at the expense of innovation. And, of course, it angers me that people had to die (and die again) because of this. I'm angered that they have besmirched Boeing's reputation for safety and reliability. That is my sole bone of contention here.

                  Do you not feel that way?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    it angers me that people had to die (and die again) because of this.
                    That's the over-simplification of the year, Boeing's MCAS was not the only factor in these accidents, not by any stretch.
                    But it was undoubtedly a very significant factor, and I've always said that blame, together with love and knowledge, is one of those few things that you don't have any less when you share some, so I won't stop saying it now.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                      Actually, I've said this before. I do not have it in for Boeing. I want Boeing to purge its management cancer and realize the potential of its engineers. I'm looking forward the the NMA and the 737 replacement. I don't want to see Boeing lose its position as an innovation leader. I don't want anyone outside of management to suffer from this.

                      And I want to fly in better, safer, less destructive airplanes. The 737 had its day and served us well. I never thought it would be dragged into the 21st century though.

                      But it really angers me how a group of cynical business execs have taken over the company and oriented it toward short-term wealth building at the expense of innovation. And, or course, it angers me that people had to die (and die again) because of this. I'm angered that they have besmirched Boeing's reputation for safety and reliability. That is my sole bone of contention here.

                      Do you not feel that way?
                      This should make you feel better. Think of it as your personal Christmas gift.

                      https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boei...ax-crisis.html

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                        This should make you feel better. Think of it as your personal Christmas gift.

                        https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boei...ax-crisis.html
                        I'm not unhappy to see him go, as he defended the management status quo before coming clean and lobbied the president to prevent the 737-Max grounding even after the second accident. Muilenberg wasn't the guy to reform Boeing. But I also see him as a victim and a corporate scapegoat. He inherited this entire mess and the fateful decisions that led up to these tragedies were already made when he took the helm.

                        Get me Stonecipher and McNerney. That's all I want for Christmas.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

                          This should make you feel better. Think of it as your personal Christmas gift.

                          https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boei...ax-crisis.html
                          a good, if not too late, start. the management purge needs to reach down into the lower levels as well. all those folks played a part in covering up problems and failing to be transparent.

                          as for evan's "bone," this is not a boeing problem. it is a wall street problem. every publicly traded company is pressured to perform NOW! not long term. cash is king. future proofing is a waste as far as traders and analysts are concerned.

                          for as long as corporate execs answer to wall street and cave0in to their cash now demands, no products of any kind will be truly reliable or safe.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Evan View Post

                            I'm not unhappy to see him go, as he defended the management status quo before coming clean and lobbied the president to prevent the 737-Max grounding even ater the second accident. Muilenberg wasn't the guy to reform Boeing. But I also see him as a victim and a corporate scapegoat. He inherited this enitre mess and the fateful decisions that led up to these tragedies were already made when he took the helm.

                            Get me Stonecipher and McNerney. That's all I want for Christmas.
                            I figured it was Obama's fault. All I want for Christmas is Trump removed from office and behind bars.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                              All I want for Christmas is Trump removed from office and behind bars.
                              Santa can make miracles but even him has his limits!

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • When Boeing finally resumes the 737-MAX deliveries, I have no doubt it will be as safe as any other 737 series, but that means very little when it is associated with two horrific disasters. A brand with a 40% aversion rate in any other industry would be considered dead. That is how many people surveyed claim they won't fly on it. I think that is probably unlikely; many people will fly on it if the price is right, but there will be exceptions and drama will ensue. I can't imagine how difficult it will be to sell against the A320 when operators can expect this baggage to come with it. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next year. Hopefully Boeing is now committed to replacing it in the next few years with the long-overdue Y1 project.

                                https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/24/b...ax-survey.html

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