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Lion Air 737-Max missing, presumed down in the sea near CGK (Jakarta)

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  • TeeVee
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    This should make you feel better. Think of it as your personal Christmas gift.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boei...ax-crisis.html
    a good, if not too late, start. the management purge needs to reach down into the lower levels as well. all those folks played a part in covering up problems and failing to be transparent.

    as for evan's "bone," this is not a boeing problem. it is a wall street problem. every publicly traded company is pressured to perform NOW! not long term. cash is king. future proofing is a waste as far as traders and analysts are concerned.

    for as long as corporate execs answer to wall street and cave0in to their cash now demands, no products of any kind will be truly reliable or safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    This should make you feel better. Think of it as your personal Christmas gift.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boei...ax-crisis.html
    I'm not unhappy to see him go, as he defended the management status quo before coming clean and lobbied the president to prevent the 737-Max grounding even after the second accident. Muilenberg wasn't the guy to reform Boeing. But I also see him as a victim and a corporate scapegoat. He inherited this entire mess and the fateful decisions that led up to these tragedies were already made when he took the helm.

    Get me Stonecipher and McNerney. That's all I want for Christmas.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    Actually, I've said this before. I do not have it in for Boeing. I want Boeing to purge its management cancer and realize the potential of its engineers. I'm looking forward the the NMA and the 737 replacement. I don't want to see Boeing lose its position as an innovation leader. I don't want anyone outside of management to suffer from this.

    And I want to fly in better, safer, less destructive airplanes. The 737 had its day and served us well. I never thought it would be dragged into the 21st century though.

    But it really angers me how a group of cynical business execs have taken over the company and oriented it toward short-term wealth building at the expense of innovation. And, or course, it angers me that people had to die (and die again) because of this. I'm angered that they have besmirched Boeing's reputation for safety and reliability. That is my sole bone of contention here.

    Do you not feel that way?
    This should make you feel better. Think of it as your personal Christmas gift.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boei...ax-crisis.html

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    it angers me that people had to die (and die again) because of this.
    That's the over-simplification of the year, Boeing's MCAS was not the only factor in these accidents, not by any stretch.
    But it was undoubtedly a very significant factor, and I've always said that blame, together with love and knowledge, is one of those few things that you don't have any less when you share some, so I won't stop saying it now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    You really have it in for Boeing don't you?
    Actually, I've said this before. I do not have it in for Boeing. I want Boeing to purge its management cancer and realize the potential of its engineers. I'm looking forward the the NMA and the 737 replacement. I don't want to see Boeing lose its position as an innovation leader. I don't want anyone outside of management to suffer from this.

    And I want to fly in better, safer, less destructive airplanes. The 737 had its day and served us well. I never thought it would be dragged into the 21st century though.

    But it really angers me how a group of cynical business execs have taken over the company and oriented it toward short-term wealth building at the expense of innovation. And, of course, it angers me that people had to die (and die again) because of this. I'm angered that they have besmirched Boeing's reputation for safety and reliability. That is my sole bone of contention here.

    Do you not feel that way?

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    You really have it in for Boeing don't you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Here's an article that sums up the inherent problem at Boeing in the 21st century, which, not coincidentally, is the inherent problem with off-the-chain, selfish, greedy, shortsighted, executive-survival-driven capitalism in general:

    Originally posted by Short-Term Thinking Is Poisoning American Business
    A 2006 study conducted by economists at Duke University found that 78 percent of executives at public companies said that they would sacrifice long-term economic value for a short-term lift in share price.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/21/o...rs-warren.html

    There is a glimmer of hope that market forces might correct this, but that will require widespread wisdom, which isn't in great supply out there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    You are not from this side of the pond, are you?
    That depends upon which way I'm flying (or, in ATL's theory, sailing).

    Leave a comment:


  • flashcrash
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    What is that old saying about hindsight?
    "Always plan no matter how improbable it seems. The bill for hindsight is much more expensive than the receipt for foresight.” - Johnnie Dent Jr.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    It wasn't lost on me. I'm just saying this is not just a hindsight thing. It was a foresight failure.
    You are not from this side of the pond, are you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    If people flew on Delta's 40-year old (ex NWA) DC-9's, they'll fly on anything. I do wonder if the airlines (or even Boeing) will remove the visible -MAX branding as a result of this. That brand is toooast.

    Maybe MinLav...

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post

    I guess it was either completely over your head, or lost on you. I was agreeing to your statement for once. Captain keyboard!
    It wasn't lost on me. I'm just saying this is not just a hindsight thing. It was a foresight failure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ1DseELk-I

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    What's that old saying about FORESIGHT?

    Boeing is having just a wonderful year. The Starliner capsule botched its first visit to the ISS today. The reason being given to the press? A clock was set wrong. Ouch.

    In classic form, Boeing pointed out that if the capsule had carried a live crew, they would have sorted it out. It doesn't seem like they've learned much about redundancy...
    I guess it was either completely over your head, or lost on you. I was agreeing to your statement for once. Captain keyboard!

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by flashcrash View Post

    No doubt. And at the risk of stating the obvious, the whole point of incurring R&D costs for a new airframe is to recover those costs from the discounted cash flow of future profits from the sale of the developed aircraft. In comparison, the $5bn set-aside is hard cost. It's non-recoverable, short of a miracle. And it'll probably go higher.

    The human tragedy of these accidents can't be overstated. I don't want to deflect attention away from the seriousness of those two horrible events for a moment. But there's an economic tragedy here, for which Boeing's senior management must bear responsibility. And it's much more serious than just not having foresight. Their strategy was short term cashflow in exchange for lowered R&D spend, while their primary European competitor was doing the exact opposite. That decision affected all of us, whether or not we hold BA stock. It has a measurable impact on US GDP and on the major market indexes: https://www.ft.com/content/443d08fa-...a-30afa498db1b

    Ultimately, all of us with savings, indexed investments, or 401(k)s, are paying part of the cost for this mistake.
    Indeed.

    Leave a comment:

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