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Lion Air 737-Max missing, presumed down in the sea near CGK (Jakarta)

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  • Black Ram
    replied
    Originally posted by Schwartz View Post
    You're exaggerating....First, they are no longer hiding the mechanism for how MCAS works which makes mis-understanding what the plane is doing a lot less likely.

    Oh, how nice. Very grateful to Boeing for that.

    I just thought that now, when this has dragged for like 8 months with practically no end in sight (at least until the end of the year), that the "defend them at all cost" people would be more chill. Not that they are really saying anything.

    Boeingbob, we miss you!

    Leave a comment:


  • Schwartz
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    Over the past several months Boeing has been making changes to the 737 MAX. Most significantly, Boeing has redesigned the way Angle of Attack (AoA) sensors work with a feature of the flight control software known as Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS). Going forward, MCAS will compare information from both AoA sensors before activating, adding a minimum layer of protection.

    These software changes will prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again. However, if both sensors fail in the same way, a new sort of accident could happen. Preventing this would require a third sensor, but we’re not THAT concerned about safety.

    You're exaggerating. There are several other changes which would mitigate the highly unlikely scenario of two sensors failing or being simultaneously mis-calibrated in the exact same way.
    First, they are no longer hiding the mechanism for how MCAS works which makes mis-understanding what the plane is doing a lot less likely. Second, they are changing some software to make sure that pulling back with sufficient force on the yoke will override the MCAS behaviour or something to that effect. No need to add another part that just makes a part failure all the more likely.

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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
    I'd think this would be a still greater reason to return here. Where else can you read such masterpieces?
    The New York Times would be a good place to start. What will it take to overcome that stalwart resistance to the reality that in the early part of the century (the heyday of Wall Street overnight-fortunes), Boeing was transformed from the gold standard of aviation excellence to a dangerously compromised milkcow for short-term investors. Just today, another revelation of corruption to compromise the FAA’s role in protecting the public. It was a cancer of management, not of engineering. It was a shift of values from quality and safety to shareholder performance. Why would a veteran Boeing pilot not be angered to see that happen?

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
    I'd think this would be a still greater reason to return here. Where else can you read such masterpieces?
    Between LH's diatribes that make me want to bang my head against the wall, Evans rants that make me want to puke, and did I ever mention the fact that when I arranged for Gabriel to get 2 hours in the 74 sim that he showed up an hour and 20 minutes late?

    Leave a comment:


  • ATLcrew
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    And this is why I no longer post here.
    I'd think this would be a still greater reason to return here. Where else can you read such masterpieces?

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Remember what I said about the ‘won’t happen again’ approach to aviation safety?

    I made a few suggested revisions:

    "We are addressing the KNKT's safety recommendations, and taking actions to introduce safety to the 737 MAX to prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again. Safety was once an enduring value for everyone at Boeing and the safety of the flying public, our customers, and the crews aboard our airplanes will once again be our top priority. We value our long-standing partnership with Lion Air and we look forward to continuing to work together in the future.

    Over the past several months Boeing has been making changes to the 737 MAX. Most significantly, Boeing has redesigned the way Angle of Attack (AoA) sensors work with a feature of the flight control software known as Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS). Going forward, MCAS will compare information from both AoA sensors before activating, adding a minimum layer of protection.

    These software changes will prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again. However, if both sensors fail in the same way, a new sort of accident could happen. Preventing this would require a third sensor, but we’re not THAT concerned about safety.

    In addition, Boeing will be cancelling the stock holdings and retirement compensation for past executives responsible for the reckless management policies that led to the deaths of hundreds of unsuspecting Lion Air customers.
    And this is why I no longer post here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    "We commend Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee for its extensive efforts to determine the facts of this accident, the contributing factors to its cause and recommendations aimed toward our common goal that this never happens again."
    Remember what I said about the ‘won’t happen again’ approach to aviation safety?

    I made a few suggested revisions:

    "We are addressing the KNKT's safety recommendations, and taking actions to introduce safety to the 737 MAX to prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again. Safety was once an enduring value for everyone at Boeing and the safety of the flying public, our customers, and the crews aboard our airplanes will once again be our top priority. We value our long-standing partnership with Lion Air and we look forward to continuing to work together in the future.

    Over the past several months Boeing has been making changes to the 737 MAX. Most significantly, Boeing has redesigned the way Angle of Attack (AoA) sensors work with a feature of the flight control software known as Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS). Going forward, MCAS will compare information from both AoA sensors before activating, adding a minimum layer of protection.

    These software changes will prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again. However, if both sensors fail in the same way, a new sort of accident could happen. Preventing this would require a third sensor, but we’re not THAT concerned about safety.

    In addition, Boeing will be cancelling the stock holdings and retirement compensation for past executives responsible for the reckless management policies that led to the deaths of hundreds of unsuspecting Lion Air customers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2019-10...n-Final-Report

    CHICAGO, Oct. 25, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) issued the following statement regarding the release today of the final investigation report of Lion Air Flight 610 by Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT):

    "On behalf of everyone at Boeing, I want to convey our heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of those who lost their lives in these accidents. We mourn with Lion Air, and we would like to express our deepest sympathies to the Lion Air family," said Boeing President & CEO Dennis Muilenburg. "These tragic events have deeply affected us all and we will always remember what happened."

    "We commend Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee for its extensive efforts to determine the facts of this accident, the contributing factors to its cause and recommendations aimed toward our common goal that this never happens again."

    "We are addressing the KNKT's safety recommendations, and taking actions to enhance the safety of the 737 MAX to prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again. Safety is an enduring value for everyone at Boeing and the safety of the flying public, our customers, and the crews aboard our airplanes is always our top priority. We value our long-standing partnership with Lion Air and we look forward to continuing to work together in the future."

    Boeing experts, working as technical advisors to the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, have supported the KNKT over the course of the investigation. The company's engineers have been working with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and other global regulators to make software updates and other changes, taking into account the information from the KNKT's investigation.

    Since this accident, the 737 MAX and its software are undergoing an unprecedented level of global regulatory oversight, testing and analysis. This includes hundreds of simulator sessions and test flights, regulatory analysis of thousands of documents, reviews by regulators and independent experts and extensive certification requirements.

    Over the past several months Boeing has been making changes to the 737 MAX. Most significantly, Boeing has redesigned the way Angle of Attack (AoA) sensors work with a feature of the flight control software known as Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS). Going forward, MCAS will compare information from both AoA sensors before activating, adding a new layer of protection.

    In addition, MCAS will now only turn on if both AoA sensors agree, will only activate once in response to erroneous AOA, and will always be subject to a maximum limit that can be overridden with the control column.

    These software changes will prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again.

    In addition, Boeing is updating crew manuals and pilot training, designed to ensure every pilot has all of the information they need to fly the 737 MAX safely.

    Boeing continues to work with the FAA and other regulatory agencies worldwide on the certification of the software update and training program to safely return the 737 MAX to service.

    Leave a comment:


  • KGEG
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Ram View Post
    That video is like 2 yrs old. And Mentour still hasn't flown the MAX to this day.

    He also predicted the FAA won't "follow suit" and ground the MAX.
    No one should have been flying the MAX anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • elaw
    replied
    So?

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Ram
    replied
    Originally posted by elaw View Post
    That video is like 2 yrs old. And Mentour still hasn't flown the MAX to this day.

    He also predicted the FAA won't "follow suit" and ground the MAX.

    Leave a comment:


  • elaw
    replied
    https://youtu.be/l62NvkRWa5E?t=310

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by elaw View Post
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/cockpit-voice-recorder-reveals-moments-leading-lion-air-boeing-737-n985296[/URL]
    I think this is the essential thing for the FAA and Boeing to understand:

    "They didn't seem to know the trim was moving down," the third source said. "They thought only about airspeed and altitude. That was the only thing they talked about."
    I can see, in the confusion, with the stickshaker masking the trim wheel noise, how they could fail to see this as a trim runaway, but rather mistake it for a "flight control problem" a.k.a. "what's it doing now"

    Also the handover to the FO seems to provide an explanation as to why the trim switch inputs stopped. Apparently, trim was never mentioned between them, so the FO might have not recognized that aspect.

    Very sad that the pilot died looking for answers in a manual that never held any.

    Leave a comment:


  • elaw
    replied
    I know that "RTFM" is usually considered good advice, but is it part of the runaway pitch trim emergency procedure? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/c...ng-737-n985296

    Leave a comment:


  • TeeVee
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    The issue isn't really about training; it's about awareness.
    i didn't say training. though the article refers to instructing the pilots on the system. semantics?

    Leave a comment:

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